Hey Hobie

being in the biz since I was 16 I've grown with the different sports. I started with a sunfish at age 6, I think a H16 at age 10. when I became a dealer at age 16 I got a H20, when the Tiger came out I had one, always getting the latest great thing. Kiteboards came out, I had on of the 1st in the area. Now at my ripe old age of 24 I sail a H16. its fast, affordable, easy to rig and I can sail with people my age. I was the only kid around 16 years old with a H20, I sailed against older people in there 50's and 60's. I've marketed to the younger generation more than I should have and got no where, I run all my radio adds on jazz stations. print adds go in health magazines. I would love to get younger people into sailing. I know Hobie does as well. Advertising is not cheep and we must put out money where we get the most return fast and hope a little trickles do to other demographics. Building a High tech boat with wave piercing hulls for under 8K isn't going to happen the "low tech wave plowing" H16 is above that mark. the H16 is a great boat, I can sail boat for boat with most other 16' cats out there, just add a spin is you need some more Horsepower! Just my 2 cents worth that turned into a bucks.

_________________
Brad Stephens
[email protected]
(866) 786-5266 <--- Advice HOTline
http://www.sunjammers.com
www.facebook.com/sunjammers

I agree it gets a lot of exposure. And windsurfing got a ton of exposure back in the mid/late 80's... But it was soon labelled a "fad". I think kiteboarding coverage may head the same way eventually.



Yeah... Kiteboarding definitely has an dark side to it... I know several people who've been killed and tons who've been badly hurt. And it's not even that big a sport compared to other sailing sports.

And while I've taken some pretty rough tumbles windsurfing, none so far (knock on wood) have resulted in a trip to the hospital.

Personally, I think sailing (on cats, windsurfers and monohulls) is surging as a family sport. We see it here in the number of boats and boards going out the door.

Brian C

Jeez Brad... I've got windsurfing gear older than you.

Brian C
44 and holding

Got one more thing to do before I get back to building a 17....

People may not think that the plastic cats and kayaks are sexy or where Hobie should be heading. But those lines will provide the income necessary for Hobie to continue R&D. Without them, it would probably be a static situation from a design view.

Later
Brian C

I've got a hip replacement older than you.

_________________

I think that there is definently a place for the plastic cats, and I am sure that they are a blast, but there are the addrenalin junkies that want speed and looks.
I hadn't really thought alot about the price of a new boat, lets say under 10K, that is do able right?
I guess there are people out there trying to get the younger crowd into sailing. Maybe the problem lies more in the potential buyers than the sellers.
I guess we will just see where hobie goes from here, but I would like to see some amazing Tiger footage!

_________________
Nacra 5.2 "Elsies"
Hobie 14T, "Blazin" I guess I am keeping her!

You should do some shopping for new small performance sailboats (20 ft and under). It will be an eye opener.

Thistle - ~$13k
Flying Scott - $14k-$16k

Brian C

Brian,

Bump that Thistle price up to $20K with sails.

My three sons (19 to 23), and all their friends, and the kids on the university sailing team, all think the 16 is a "Cool" boat. A few have the bucks to get a used one and that's great.

Most of these young folks won't own a boat until they're mid 30's at the best. A higher probablity will be there owning a yak or windsurfer prior to that point.

On behalf of all us old farts still sailing, I'd like to bang the drum for a rotomolded boat that is close to or faster than the 16 in speed (if this takes 3 sails so be it), weighs under 250 pounds and doesn't look like a rental boat.

If rotomolding is the way then figure out were to add the heat sinks to make the platform stiff and take them away every where else to reduce weight. Weight stinks. A class (at 160 lb.) and F16 (at 240 lb.) look better and better the older I get. I may be in the minority here but I'm not ready to sacrifice performance. My crew (son) will get married or leave and I'll want something as fast as the 20 to sail, by myself, and a Wave just ain't gonna cut it for me.

_________________
hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297

So, the construction costs/labor involved with fiberglass is the problem, not the 'fiberglass" per se. I am glad that you believe that your strategy is working, but I think that maybe, just maybe, Hobie is being a little short sighted on viable ways to meet markets across the US (and the world).

How do the powerboat manufacturers do it ? A high quality Four Winns 180H with a 260 HP IO, loaded, goes for a little more than a Tiger. They use vacuum bagged fiberglass molds and they are built in Michigan (I think). How about the low-cost leader, Bayliner with manufacturing facilities in Maryland, Oregon, Minnesota and (gasp) Mexico. They have a basic philosophy to make boating affordable for all families and to be in business for your kids and your kids kids. It works. You can get a 16 foot Bayliner Capri with a motor and trailer for less than the price of a Hobie 17.

I discussed this once, a long time ago, with Ian Farrier at the Annapolis Boat show. I just about crapped in my harness when I learned how much he wanted for the newly released F-27 BEFORE you added little things like, you know - the sails , motor, cushions, tramp, safety rails, etc. After you added everything up it was astounding. There were a lot of high performance sail boats, travel ready, with life jackets and all, for 1/3 of the price of a Farrier built boat.

Part of the cost of a new boat is, of course, the tooling as you mentioned, but not just the tooling in Farrier's case, but the cost to build a new facility ($5 mil I think) in So-Cal where not only is the the labor cost high- about 3 to 5 times what they are here in the Northeast, everything else, cost of housing and living etc is VERY high compared to the rest of the US.

What I suggested to Ian, I now present for your consideration: Here in the Northeast and in the Northern Mid-West of the US, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of EMPTY warehouses and building space.
(At the time I was talking to Ian, there was a 2.3 million square foot facility available for less than 2 million dollars in my town.) There are thousands of unemployed, skilled, hard working people. We are in the Finger Lakes and close to the Great Lakes, we are on the Atlantic. There are many navigable waterways.

See where I'm going with this ? I'll bet there'd be 10 times as many F-type tris out there as there are now, if the fleet was not concentrated on the west coast, and if the cost of the boat was 1/2 of what it is now - all of which I believe is possible still for Farrier and possibly a new beginning for Hobie.

Just a dream Matt, but I am a sailor with the same mind as the founders of Bayliner - a boat for everyone that wants one, not just anyone who can afford one. Hmm, China ? No, I think Hobie still wants to build a quality boat....

Peace out -

_________________
The fact that this windy world is largely covered in water obviously means that man was meant to sail.

I'd have to agree about the cost of labor being cheaper in the Midwest than in CA. I'll bet the environmental compliance regulations are a lot less stringent, too.

BTW, Four Winns are made in western Michigan. I live outside of Detroit.

The comparison with Bayliner is not really fair - they can spread their fixed costs over a lot more units than Hobie can. Low production numbers mean higher prices.

The labor unions are learning a real hard lesson in the auto industry. Both GM and Ford have had buyout programs to shave down their workforces - where are these people going to work now? These are skilled people that will end up being greeters at Wal-Mart unless some new industry comes into this area, which doesn't seem likely.

It was a big deal when Google announced they would be bringing 1,000 new jobs to Ann Arbor. Big f---ing deal. That's a drop in the bucket compared to how many jobs the auto industry is shedding around here.

H-16 hull production has been moved to AUS - is all fiberglass work being done there now? (17's & 20's?). Logistically, it makes sense to be on the west coast when you're trading parts and subassemblies back and forth with AUS, but I've got to believe you could still make fiberglass parts in the US for less.

OK rant over. BTW, there's some really cheap industrial space for sale / lease here in Detroit We've got a great transportation system, too.

Hey, Matt - send me some tooling and I'll get you set up here for next to nothing.

Yeah... You're probably right. I was looking at old data. But then any price can be "bumped" through the suitable application of go-fast goodies.

Brian C

And another part of the midwest has been building boats for fifty years.

Iola (Kansas) Molded Plastics or IMP were built in South East Kansas and Cobalt boats are currently built here. I'm not downplaying the process but it does go on in more places than you'd think.

It's a quite commendable undertaking to build boats. You'd have to wonder what all the reasons behind Matt MacDonald (Blade) leaving this area to build boats in Florida and I'd guess the experience of Vectormarine was pivotal.

I'm not ashamed that my kids play Fender guitars "assembled in Mexico" as they are just as good as the "American standard" assembled in USA and generally accepted as such (even by their peers). They both use the same parts and assembly labor savings, by its self, amount to a significant reduction in the price.

How much can you save in 200 hours labor (probably high) per boat by being in a different part of the US? $10/hour? (probably high) And that's the direct labor cost, the facility has to be in place.

Unless you go really cheap on labor (i.e. Mexico) don't see a move being warranted.

I'll buy a Mexican Hobie. I think we can all realize we are a throw away society. At least there's not planned obselecence (sp?) in Hobies, is there?

_________________
hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297

This is a very interesting thread. I never thought of the comparison to motorboats. One significant statement left out, approx. 70% of the cost of a motorboat is the engine, ie a 20k bassboat with a 150hp outboard. The motor is 12 to 15k alone. Where is Hobie spending that kind of money on one component, yet an I/O Bayliner is less than a Tiger. My bassboat motor cost more than the '02 Fox I used to own. The argument of cost to produce glass boats seems out of line. Lets be honest Hobie, the margins on plastic boats are double to triple that of glass boats. By calling the plastic boats Hobies' you can ask a rediculus price for a non-repairable toy. Hobie is using the reputation they built years ago to move their plastic crap. No one other than Hobie could get away with this. Yes, they are selling significant numbers of these toys. And they will soon face competition in the plastic market as well, several new sleeker designs coming from Europe. I still love my 18 but as Gree said, an 8k high tech durable speed machine would have me selling my boat tomorrow. If Hobie continues to let Nacra, Blade and Capricorn gain momentum they may as well sell nothing but plastic boats as they will no longer have a market for high-tech cats at their pricing scales. The Blade and Caps allready under price the Tiger, and they just tooled and built factories and spent on R&D. Give them a couple years to absorb that cost and they can build more, faster and for less at retail.

I hadn't thought about that, my grandfather just bought a brand new fiberglass bass boat. He only paid 12,000 for it, After 1 year the motor had some issues and was replaced under warranty but he saw what it cost. The motor alone was 7000. So how does a 16 foot catamaran add up that quickly. In my mind there is alot more that goes into making a bass boat, I mean they put decks in and lots of storage plus all the steering and throttle stuff. Does the cost come from the way the boat is made, or from the materials.

It is scary that the other companies are producing new boats for less than the Tiger since the Tiger is the oldest of the F18s, and what about the f16 market. Why does Hobie not have anything in that market?

_________________
Nacra 5.2 "Elsies"
Hobie 14T, "Blazin" I guess I am keeping her!

and the insurrection begins...

_________________
Trey Brown
www.velocitysailing.com
2006 N20 1017
1998 H16 102698
www.sunjammers.com ftw!