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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:40 am 
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I just found out about a couple of interesting sails that could perhaps be used on the i11s. I'm referring to the Spirit and the Serenity sails by www.upwindkayaks.com. They seem affordable, but my main concern is that the boom might not be high enough... What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:41 pm 
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The Spirit is the one for paddleboards. The kayak Harmony might work too but I think the Serenity needs a rigid kayak to attach the bow stay and has a complications for the sheet. You don't need Serenity leeboards, but will you be stable enough to go without Harmony outriggers?

The boom shouldn't be a deal killer if you can push it upwards over your head. Maybe don't lash the sheet pulley to the deck but just directly hold a short line to the middle of the boom. You might try without boom too. I'm not sure your bow will be rigid enough to lash the mast base... better use the full 5psi. Might work on my existing 15psi inflato boards.



UPDATE: Amazon wouldn't ship to my location for $19 or any price, so I found found Kayaksails under Bonanza will send me a purple Spirit with free shipping. I think sales are handled by David the inventor anyway - try a google SHOPPING search.

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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:54 am 
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Here are a few more observations while I wait for David to negotiate a Spirit shipping surcharge after all. Consider how the mast is braced to take loads and not fall over. There are 3 shrouds that are hard to see in the pictures. The most trivial load would be for the mast falling sternwise, and for this there is a short forward shroud that you would tie to your bow carry handle. The SUP I wanted to use doesn't have that, but my second choice does.

The strongest mast loads would be to the side and forward. Normally side shrouds are set back and resist both side and forward forces, but the Spirit shrouds are only attached sideways to the crossbar (or it's strap looping around the hull). Not sure where this rectangular sidebar will dig in relative to the bulb of i11s side sponsons. Maybe some padding or filler will be needed if they cause the crossbar to be floating loose above the center deck. Maybe the underhull strap will not go flush against hull and cause a flutter.

Lastly there is forward pull of the sail which is mainly resisted by a square bar going forward from crossbar. It isn't tied down to anything and may need the endpoint padded to not dig in to the soft deck due to the mast leverage. Normally the sheet on the boom should also offload the forward thrust, but less so if you have to remove it's connection to the stern for free-er passage over your head. You could just remove the boom but the sail would have a taco shape on several points of sailing (just like the normal Hobie inflato sailkit).

Edit: Also there is the question how much the i11s deck may twist under a strong mast sideload, or bend down it's bow under strong mast forward load. Probably a high wind issue, which brings to mind what are you gonna do if the wind picks up too strong? Maybe you can swing the boom up against the mast and loop the sheet around the mass of sail/boom/mast. Maybe you can release the crossbar strap to scoot the mast base forward and drop the mast/boom/sail down beside you (limited by the still attached forward shroud).

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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Very good points, Daft! I think I am still closer to pulling the trigger on the i12s.


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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:18 am 
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Spirit sail is projected to take a week more to reach me. Maybe was lucky I got a preview today what it's like to have a shakedown cruise with an out of tune rig. None of this with an i11s, but you could have the same issues at first with a sail rig not tailor designed for your hull.

First of all there is helm balance = weather vaneing = weather/lee helm. I'm not talking about fine tuning, but complete dysfunctional mayhem where you either have to hold the rudder 45 degrees one way or the other to even go straight. Experiment in a forgiving place to see whether you (1) need to move the mast base back for more weathervaneing or (2) forward for less (or reverse) weathervaneing.

Also I would start off with your skeg attached and fins down. The same principals apply in reverse underwater. For instance the extra rear skeg area or a bigger sailing rudder should reduce weather helm or increase lee helm. In case I have explained this badly, look it up online. Marrying a random sail rig to a random hull could be so unbalanced that you have NO control over your direction even with max rudder deflection. Be ready to let out the sail or steer with paddle at first.

I tried this in such a safe remote place, there was even nobody to see my pants always falling down due to loose drawstring. Anyway I had another insight based on the Spirit video of David awkwardly holding a paddle and the sail sheet at the same time. The rig I just tried had a crazy approach of a no-hands sail sheet tied to the stern! That is sacrilegious on so many levels, like needing to quickly pay out the sheet to avoid an overturn.

My rig had a bungee for a mainsheet with a buckle to adjust length once-in-a-while. It worked great and allowed me a free hand to pull up my pants periodically. Sailing normally takes one hand for steering and one for sail sheet, but this was incredibly liberating. I wouldn't win any races, but I could tack upwind and jibe downwind reasonably under not strong conditions. I already like unconventionally keeping the sail pulled in downwind (sailing by the lee) which makes an airfoil rather than a big drag device. Anyway, a possibility to try with this Spirit rig, although it would be tippier. It would allow you to push the boom up over your head due to elasticity, while a sheet pulley may not free up as fast while tacking.

LATER EDIT: Oops, I forgot you will have pedal power to get yourself out of most tuning problems if you can depower the sail.

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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:47 am
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Location: Oregon Coast
I went with the WindPaddle Adventure, just arrived, the updated 47" shallower design, once it stops raining here, I will be testing it mounted at the front of my i11s and also center mounted on my Oasis...I like the fact that it folds up easily and small enough that I can have it along on all my outings on either boat, ready to grab a free ride from the wind when the opportunity comes along...

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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:51 pm 
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rogerdodger wrote:
ready to grab a free ride from the wind when the opportunity comes along...

Yours claims to also work perpendicular to the wind, and I would even try a bit into the wind while pedaling if it doesn't get too tippy. The conventional Hobie sailkit will point into the wind even tighter than a 45 deg angle if you are pedalling... I mean the sail will continue pulling you then, in a way that almost seems to defy physics. You would think the almost head-on apparent wind would collapse the sail, but the leading edge gets sucked out by bernouli principle. The leading edge does most of the work on an airfoil, although you have a short leading edge. fusioneng claims his sail works under power straight into the wind, but I think one would need some amount of angle.

Tomorrow I should get my Spirit sail, but the weekend looks so unusually good for sailing that I may not waste it debugging an improvised rig. I had a thought about making it better adapted to softer hulls. If you think about it, the rig should have a high bending-down moment on the bow. The T shaped mast base should pivot at the crossbar and dig in forward. But why not route the side shroud back a bit in the conventional manner, so the mast pulls you rather than just digging in the frame? Or even better anchor the side shrouds to another line that is anchored to the hull in 2 places. First the crossbar and then some D ring to the rear. This is how my latest inflato sailboat is rigged, and it is so elegant in not loading up one gluepad inordinately, and in the Spirit case the other end could go to the crossbar as intended. This arrangement leaves the sail free to swing out more than if you sent the shroud only to that rear D ring.

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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Not quite straight into the wind, I need to be at least around 10 degrees off the natural wind. Everything works nicely in around 5-7 mph winds. In lower winds under 3mph (which is almost never) I need a little more throttle and have to sail in an shallow curve path back and forth. I know this all seems really wierd but it all boils down to the basic design of my wing, it has to have positive pressure on one side and vacuum on the other to work, driving on a curve biases the apparent airflow slightly. The wingform is an eppler 420 symmetric airfoil, to bend the wing into an assymetric shape requires air pressure on one side or the other to change it's form.

Keep in mind my boat is not a sailboat, the wing is not a sail and doesn't propel the boat as primary propulsion at all, works on a totally different concept from any sailing vessel (way simpler basic physics no different from how an air conditioner works by amplifying existing energy, (my forward motion, created by my forward motion, similar to the way an airplane wing operates (the wings don't propel the airplane, they only create a vacuum that lifts the plane in the air).
In 2-3 mph winds my pedaling effort and supplimental hybrid propulsion system propels the boat to around 7mph, the wing buys me maybe 1-2 additional mph at the very most in very low wind, and improves my fuel economy (via less drag).
The propulsion is constant (throttles always locked at very low rpm ( very quiet). The more natural wind I have to work with results in higher cruise speed and improved fuel economy. I average around 60-80mpg.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:16 am 
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Really eager to read about the outcome of your Windpaddle and Spirit sail experiments!


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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:51 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
We have always been big into kayak sailing, and even to this day kayak sailing is one of our favorite pastimes, Actually in the ten or so yrs we have been kayaking with Hobie mirage kayaks we have never gone out (not even once) without a Hobie kayak sail furled and strapped to the side of the kayak. If any usable wind develops we have it up and working within a minute or so (just plug it in). All our Hobie kayak sails have the cheap PVC furlers on them so we can furl/unfurl the sail in a heartbeat (the PVC furlers cost about $5 bucks to make, and can be made in about 20 minutes, really simple).
Because of geography and natural wind direction we find ourselves going upwind 85% of the time (we always start out upwind, then return downwind, just for safety reasons).
One really unique feature of the Hobie mirage kayak is it's ability to sail efficiently upwind (close hauled), 15-25 degrees off the wind even in higher winds. This is totally unique to Hobie mirage kayaks.
What we do is point directly into the wind. unfurl the kayak sail and pull it as tight as you can, (it shouldn't luff and flutter if pulled tight enough). Now start peddling (like crazy at first), as you pick up speed turn slightly off the wind. As the sail catches and starts driving the boat you have to keep peddling, but not super hard (just a walking pace). This puts the boat into an artificial stance. It works great even in 15 mph headwinds, you just have to maintain strict rudder control, if you go sideways you will for sure go over, or if your forward motion stops, the rudder becomes useless, so you have to keep peddling. If it gets too windy run with a partially furled sail.
The big turbo fins work the best, the whole key to defying physics is keep peddling (it's good exercise anyway), and in my opinion what keyak sailing is all about, don't bother trying to pretend you a sailboat (total waste of time), exploit the design for what it is, not what it isn't (a sailing kayak, not a real sailboat like a laser or sunfish, (it's actually way better).
This should all work on an I11s as well, (one of the reasons I'm thinking of picking up a couple of them). Yea we got the big ole TI, but we miss the kayak sailing once we get to the remote islands, our current cheapo Sevler inflatable paddle kayaks just don't cut it, and nobody wants to even take them out once we get to the remote island and go exploring. The big TI mothership gets us there and back (sometimes 15-20 miles from launch).
Some of our kayak sailing rigs:

Our old Oasis
Image

One of our two matching Revo's:
Image

Our TI in kayak mode with a wing sail (what we use now for kayak sailing, when not using the boat in full TI mode (AMA's, motors, and massive sailsets)):
Image

We have a lot of fun traveling and kayak sailing in any body of water we can find, and have way over 200k road miles with trailer in tow and sailing kayaks on the roof. Plus it's a really nice way to see nature up close, and good exercise.
I hope to see some I11s sailing videos before we commit. Basically putting a knife to our cheapo Sevler inflatable kayaks (total waste of time and effort (family mutiny, they were all spoiled by the Hobie mirage hard kayaks). Our problem is we only have so much room on top of our truck.

It's a Hobie life for me. (in a pirates voice)
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:44 pm 
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Well, my test of Spirit fore-and-aft sail will be without a mirage drive, on a regular inflatable SUP. I do expect to sail it seated, so maybe can speculate how it might work on an i11s. For comparison I include a video of the other Windpaddle Adventure sailing 90 deg to the wind, altho it is the older, smaller, baggier model. It's odd that that it is more expensive than the Spirit with all its hardware. Also I wonder if it allows enough visibility... why not all clear?



So we are encouraging trying Windpaddle closer than the advertised 90 deg into the wind thru use of fin drive. On my i12s I pedal the fins when wanting to sail closer than 50 deg to the wind in a hurry, but I prefer to leave the fins down and still. I used to motorsail as a crew member in a 40ish foot trimaran for overnight upwind runs to achieve a closer angle. It definitely worked better if we put up "too much" sail for the conditions, but it made for a nervous ride in big waves. I looked for some background theory and practice on "motor sailing" with google, but came up empty.

LATER ADDENDUM: I just tried googling motorsailing as one word, and hit a bunch of stuff. Here is a teaser from http://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/cr ... orsailing/ , so try it:
Quote:
If you keep your main on the boat’s centerline and flatten it as much as you can (by tightening its halyard, outhaul and boomvang and easing off its topping lift), you’ll be surprised how tight an apparent wind angle you can maintain (usually less than 20 degrees) while still keeping the sail filled. Because you’re relying on the engine to create most of the drive, you can get away with a super-flat sail shape, but the sail will still greatly stabilize the boat’s motion and also add some extra speed. In situations where you don’t have to maintain a super-tight angle, you can bear off a little, put more shape in the sail (maybe even roll out the jib, too) and enjoy even more free speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:25 am 
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please don't miss my addendum just above re pedal sailing. Anyway, I had a quick look over the Spirit sailkit, and cooled down my ardor for attaching it to my prime SUPs. The mast, boom, and sail look ok, but the mast base is pretty brutal to be digging into an expensive soft inflatable. Remember, these have inner structure that probably doesn't like being twisted around.

Probably you folks can think of ways to mate it better, but for me the yard long crossbar is too short, so all 3 ends of the T can dig into bladder. It's a heavy block of wood with huge screw eyes, and is anchored by a too short strap with a huge sharp ratchet that you can hardly keep clear of bladder. Yeah, the corners can be padded and the strap can be re-routed above and below the hull, but my solution may be to install it on a tough smaller old SUP if I can lose a few pounds to avoid submarining it. Oh, the forward part of the T is a stiff PVC tube that also seems sharp.

The mast and boom are like telescoping shower curtain rods that go from 5 to 12 feet. The manual sez you can even shorten them as a means of reducing sail, although that seems likely to leave some baggy wrinkles. The sail is attached by sort of shower rod rings, so it is forgiving in a way that I think you could raise the low boom simply tying the top of the sail into a knot to shorten it. Hard to think how you would carry it furled up; it is far from the tailored solution Hobie has for i9s and i12s.

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 Post subject: Re: Sail for a i11s
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:29 pm 
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daft wrote:
Probably you folks can think of ways to mate it better,

If you can make a workable mastbase out of plywood or whatever, look at the good success this paddleboard has with small simple homemade conventional sail, and not just downwind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ00VD2VG_k
(I can't get the video preview mode to work)

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