Hobie Forums :: View topic - Mirage Drive Stroke Counter

Tom Ray wrote:

Cool! Cheap, easy, and removable. I agree with JimL that there may be false counts from moving about. For racing purposes, we could just call that tough luck! Try not to move unless you need to move!

I suspect if it was attached above the knee, there would be fewer false positive strokes.

I guess the electronic counter is going to be patented? The video only
shows the display not the actuator.

I guess the electronic counter is going to be patented?

Then I might be able to use the evidence to convince the Missus that I really AM working hard out there

I like the idea of a class race, but by the looks of it I am in a minority on wanting to race using wind, mirage drive and even the paddle. If a series of races were taking place over a number of weeks then it could even out between the skilled sailor and the powerfull peddler. In 20kn winds I dont see much peddling being done but in very light winds it would be entertaining to watch the tactics and coordination of competitors trying to paddle, peddle and keep wind in there sails.

Who knows when to furl and pedal? It is an AI skill.

Let's say winds are nice, and your upwind sailing speed is 6 knots. Let's further assume that you're tacking through 90 degrees. That means your speed upwind will be 3 knots. I can almost always pedal faster than that if I really want to, but the problem is, I don't really want to! Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't want to get out there and pedal my butt off against some maniac who doesn't realize this is a SAILING race.

The "no luffing" rule would be a pretty good compromise, but I could tack very, very slowly while pedaling my butt off and make quite a bit of "extra" progress upwind during each tack. We can't rule out luffing during a tack, and if I could make 4 knots directly upwind during a tack, I'd do it for as long as possible.

Author:	saipedaddlefisher [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: I agree about using a pedometer
chrisj wrote: Tom Ray wrote: Cool! Cheap, easy, and removable. I agree with JimL that there may be false counts from moving about. For racing purposes, we could just call that tough luck! Try not to move unless you need to move! I suspect if it was attached above the knee, there would be fewer false positive strokes. I might see whether I can attach one to a pedal arm or maybe one to each pedal arm and then I'll go twice as fast

Author:	Tom Ray [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:30 am ]
Post subject:
Looks like the first one is in operation! Thanks saipedaddlefisher! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AzlTDNz6OY

Author:	TIDALWAVE [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Chrisj...you are probably correct
When you pump your leg...your thigh does one arc... but you can hold your thigh in one position and can still swing your lower leg back and forth. If you are going to use a strap on pedometer...strap it on your thigh not your ankle. And I agree that any rocking of hull...even if you are not pedalling would cause the pedometer to count! I guess the most accurate would be some kind of electronic/mechanical switch-counter attached to the Drive. I guess the electronic counter is going to be patented? The video only shows the display not the actuator.

Author:	Jim_L [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chrisj...you are probably correct
TIDALWAVE wrote: I guess the electronic counter is going to be patented? The video only shows the display not the actuator. Follow the Australian Kayak Fishing Forum link in saipedaddlefisher's post. (6th posting on first page of this thread) The photos there give a nice view of the sensor installation. Even if not racing, I think it'd be pretty cool to really know how much I was sailing, vs how much I was peddling. Happy Sailing, - Jim L

Author:	saipedaddlefisher [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Chrisj...you are probably correct
TIDALWAVE wrote: I guess the electronic counter is going to be patented? Not by me I'm just building on ideas put forward by other guys on both sides of the Pacific I'd be really happy, however, to see Hobie use some of these ideas to develop some sort of a stroke counter that would be robust enough to operate in saltwater. Then I might be able to use the evidence to convince the Missus that I really AM working hard out there

Hobie Forums http://www.hobie.com/forums/

Mirage Drive Stroke Counter http://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=10843	Page 2 of 2

Author:	Jim_L [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chrisj...you are probably correct
saipedaddlefisher wrote: Then I might be able to use the evidence to convince the Missus that I really AM working hard out there The problem is wiping that huge grin off your face. Otherwise she's never gonna buy it. Yeah, that's the one! Let us know how that works out for ya. - Jim L

Author:	northsea [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:41 am ]
Post subject:	AI Class race
I like the idea of a class race, but by the looks of it I am in a minority on wanting to race using wind, mirage drive and even the paddle. If a series of races were taking place over a number of weeks then it could even out between the skilled sailor and the powerfull peddler. In 20kn winds I dont see much peddling being done but in very light winds it would be entertaining to watch the tactics and coordination of competitors trying to paddle, peddle and keep wind in there sails.

Author:	chrisj [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: AI Class race
northsea wrote: I like the idea of a class race, but by the looks of it I am in a minority on wanting to race using wind, mirage drive and even the paddle. If a series of races were taking place over a number of weeks then it could even out between the skilled sailor and the powerfull peddler. In 20kn winds I dont see much peddling being done but in very light winds it would be entertaining to watch the tactics and coordination of competitors trying to paddle, peddle and keep wind in there sails. I'm with you northsea. Since the Mirage drive is part of the magic of the AI, why not make it an integral part of any race. You would have to standardize the fins which were used and I thought the standard fins would be most suitable because: 1) Everyone should have a set. 2) Their limited capacity tends to de-emphasise the importance of pedalling relative to sailing. This would achieve a similar end to counting strokes and you don't have to determine an arbitrary penalty for using too many strokes. I don't think you can completely eliminate a physical fitness factor from any sailing race - you don't see too many unfit people winning Laser class events.

Author:	Roadrunner [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:
There was a regatta at Dana Point last year. With the AI group, they allowed the Drive but no luffing. I was in a different race but didn't hear of any complaints. I like the Drive in the race; it adds a whole new dimension. That's the way the boat is designed.

Author:	Chekika [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:23 am ]
Post subject:
Yeah, I've got to agree. The AI is a sailing kayak w/ a Mirage Drive. Do a straight sail-only, and it is just another sail boat race. Use the Mirage Drive unlimited and now you have an AI race. Hell, throw the paddle in and now you have an ultimate AI race. On at least one of my trips, Bill Waller, who likes to pedal, would actually make better time pedaling a straight-line than I did tacking into the wind and/or battling a current. In retrospect, he was doing the right and smart thing. It seems that if you can furl your sail (it takes only a few seconds), and pedal, and make the best time, that is what an AI race is all about. Who knows when to furl and pedal? It is an AI skill. Is a GPS going to be allowed? Keith

Author:	Tom Ray [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:48 am ]
Post subject:
Chekika wrote: Who knows when to furl and pedal? It is an AI skill. I know, and the answer in an upwind/downwind race is: it's almost ALWAYS going to be faster to pedal upwind. That's why I started this thread. Think about this: Let's say winds are nice, and your upwind sailing speed is 6 knots. Let's further assume that you're tacking through 90 degrees. That means your speed upwind will be 3 knots. I can almost always pedal faster than that if I really want to, but the problem is, I don't really want to! Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't want to get out there and pedal my butt off against some maniac who doesn't realize this is a SAILING race. The "no luffing" rule would be a pretty good compromise, but I could tack very, very slowly while pedaling my butt off and make quite a bit of "extra" progress upwind during each tack. We can't rule out luffing during a tack, and if I could make 4 knots directly upwind during a tack, I'd do it for as long as possible.

Author:	chrisj [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:21 am ]
Post subject:
Tom Ray wrote: Let's say winds are nice, and your upwind sailing speed is 6 knots. Let's further assume that you're tacking through 90 degrees. That means your speed upwind will be 3 knots. I can almost always pedal faster than that if I really want to, but the problem is, I don't really want to! Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't want to get out there and pedal my butt off against some maniac who doesn't realize this is a SAILING race. The "no luffing" rule would be a pretty good compromise, but I could tack very, very slowly while pedaling my butt off and make quite a bit of "extra" progress upwind during each tack. We can't rule out luffing during a tack, and if I could make 4 knots directly upwind during a tack, I'd do it for as long as possible. Tom, My trigonometry is a bit rusty, but if you were making 6 knots hull speed at an angle of 45 degrees to the wind, wouldn't your upwind speed be 6 times cosine 45 = 4.2 knots, which would be harder to maintain by pedalling directly upwind, especially with standard fins. So pedalling upwind will not necessarily beat tacking in fresher winds, but there is no denying pedalling PLUS sailing is always going to be quicker than sailing alone, at least on a close reach.

Author:	Tom Ray [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:22 am ]
Post subject:
Chris, My trig rusted clean off! My thinking is that at 45 degrees, half your progress is upwind, half across the wind. Simple and logical, but maybe wrong. Anyone?

Author:	TIDALWAVE [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Tom Ray...you are correct
A 45 degree angle to the wind makes an isosceles triangle, where both legs are identical. So If you are going 6 kts at 45 to the wind... you are progressing windward at 4.2 kts but also are moving 4.2 kts perpendicular to the wind.

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