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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:36 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I haven't posted on this thread in a while, so I thought I would post an update.

Sorry for the long and boring subject.

The last couple yrs I've just been using the boat as is without any major addition changes, can't think of anything else to do to what I consider to be the perfect boat (thus it's name The Ultimate Tandem Island).
Yea I have a new replacement main wing sail designed, and have all the materials for it, but lack the ambition to actually build it (couple weekends). I doubt I will be doing any more work on the boat, I just plan to use the Ultimate Tandem Island as as for the foreseeable future.

I hardly ever use my spinnaker anymore, and seldom bring it along on the boat (just hangs in the garage 95% of the time). As seen in the video below (previously posted) when I deploy my spinnaker I furl up and drop the wing jib, then lay the mast across the left tramp. With my old (non-wing) jibs I would simply furl the jib up, then unfurl the spinnaker, always leaving both the masts up. Because the wing jib when furled ends up being a little puffy, leaving the mast up creates a lot of drag. In other words, it's now inconvienent to switch between upwind mode and downwind mode so as a result I don't bother with the spinnaker anymore. Also the max speed you can ever achieve with a spin is 1=1 with the wind downwind. With my current wing and hybrid setup (tripower, with no spin) I can easily sail 1.5x to 2x windspeed downwind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLfQmIKm2MQ


Lets be honest here, I totally suck as a sailer, and lack patience going slow. I'm a destination sailer and want to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. In conventional sailing mode in light winds (<6mph) my TI conventional sailing averages maybe 3-4mph (as seen in the video above). If I want to go up to Egmont key and back (we do this often), that's a 50 mile round trip, If I can't get there in a couple hrs, it's simply not worth goin, (just sayin).

Here is a kinda long (and extremely boring) previously posted video (from a long time ago, (2013)), kinda explaining the whole story (for the benefit of any new followers), you can see my spinnaker mast laying across the right tramp in parts of the video. You can also see near the beginning (before I made the wing), my previous setup with the jib and spin both on furlers (which I liked very much).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dgLYAfCuEw


Since that video was made I made a few incremental minor improvements:
1: The boat was widened to 12 ft wide verses the stock 10 ft wide, now the boat is near impossible to capsize with it's larger sail area.
2: The displacement type kayak hull (pointed at the back) was upgraded to a planing type hull (similar to a WETA hull), with an add on (removable) hull modification. Since the mod is glass/foamcore construction, an added benefit is 100lbs ef extra hull flotation (I can now carry larger loads (around 800 lbs)). My next planned full hull mod will bump that number higher.
3: With the single Honda 2.3hp stock motor/propeller, I couldn't get much over 8 mph in light winds, and in higher winds if the boat exceeded 12 mph there was high risk of exploding the motors (yea I exploded a couple).
4: I added a second Honda 2.3 motor with custom designed super high pitch propellers, now the boat easily cruises at 8-10 (@ 1/4 throttle) in very low winds and tops out in higher winds at around 15mph without fear of exploding the motors. Yea the fuel economy took a little hit, my average fuel economy went down to 60-80mpg from the previous 80-100mpg, but the boat is way faster now ( I can afford the extra $.50 cents a day).
5: I converted my Mirage drives to Glide technology, and replaced my turbo fins with the new Eclipse Flow-90 fins, mostly because standard mirage fins can only provide useful propulsion up to around 8mph (below my normal cruise speed). I can now get useful propulsion at higher speeds with the Eclipse fins, but at the sacrifice of low speed effort/performance (obviously). I don't care about low speed pedal performance since I never go below 8 mph ever anyway.

Yea I can go out and sail in 15-20+ winds with the boat (done it a few times), and can easily sail upwind (25-30 deg off the wind) with full sails out and motors at WOT I can easily cruise 15mph, (obviously the fuel economy goes out the window (lol)). However around here anyway with the wind comes 2-3 ft washing machine chop. Also you have to realize the apparent wind and natural wind combined puts the wind blowing at your face and over your sails at over 30mph. The strain on the boat itself and the masts is excessive (I have actually folded my aluminum wing mast several times now in 20mph plus winds). First off the ride is so physically demanding it's simply not worth it, also I'm pretty sure even with all my re-enforcement's the boat will eventually break, (just not designed for that much abuse). As you can see in this previously posted video below going just 10 mph upwind in 6 mph winds is so much of a handful and physically demanding, it's just not worth trying to push the boat that hard.(winds were directly out of the north at 6mph that day, I'm sailing around 20 deg off the wind).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-npwA3izDiw



Currently my max range per day is around 100 miles (10 hrs @ 10 mph), regardless of actual wind speed and direction, I don't really care which way the wind is blowing, or the actual windspeed, (even 2-3mph winds are no problem), actual wind just doesn't matter, the boat creates it's own wind (via apparent wind).

That's the whole purpose of the Tri-power design.

More to come
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Thank you fusioneng, I know it's an old post but your efforts are greatly appreciated. As a Keel boat sailor I find all this fascinating, many ideas running around my head.

Cheers mate

Nick


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:42 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Nick:
Thanks, yea most of the stuff I did when the boat was new back in 2010 because I was a little disapointed in the performance of the stock TI (I just don't do 2-3mph very well), As a former hydroplane racer, the whole sailing thing, man vs sea and all that rot got old really fast.
Plus SW florida and the keys are huge and we at times need to go up to a hundred miles, doin that at 2mph makes for a really long day.
Like I said most of the components like the bowsprit, mast topper, and most of the masts and rigging are the same exact parts I installed back in spring 2010, they definately are looking their age now, but everything continues to work flawlessly, I just use the stuff now, haven't really made any major changes in about 4 yrs now. Some of the stuff (like the hydrofoils), I retired a while ago (just too dang dangerous), but their hangin in the garage if I ever get that bug again (I doubt it).
Unfortunately photobucket stopped hosting pics, so all the old pics are now lost forever. I'm sure youtube will follow suit shortly.
Good luck
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:41 pm 
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I find the idea of a stay-less shroud-less boat so utterly foreign as to be sacrilegious. I'm trying to Rig shrouds but the furling mast has me stymied. In any event, these summer doldrums are getting me down.

Cheers

Nick


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Location: South Florida
NickW wrote:
I find the idea of a stay-less shroud-less boat so utterly foreign as to be sacrilegious. I'm trying to Rig shrouds but the furling mast has me stymied. In any event, these summer doldrums are getting me down.

Cheers

Nick

Wow, trying to rig shrouds on an Island furling mast!!! I don't think shrouds will come out of this but who knows...there is this guy is Ethiopia who makes hull-less boats....

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:35 am 
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The only time you would need shrouds and stays on a TI would be if you plan to add massive sailsets to the boat. The side to side stress on the mass holder is actually pretty strong, you would likely snap the mast before the X-frame will give out. Plus with the bendy mast if you over power the sail, the mast just bends and spills the excess air, I've had my mast bent a good 2-3ft at times (amazing how much it bends).

There is a kind of weak point on the mast holder design at the base of the mast. There is a small 1/4-20 stud sticking up from the bottom of the hull that the mast holder base attaches to. If you start adding all kinds of sails to the boat, the forward force on the mast can break that little stud. Adding a rear stay helps protect that stud. As far as side stays go, I have ran those to try and prevent the mast from bending too much. What pretty much happens is when running a jib, the side force bends the mast and the jib looses power (turns into a taco shell). Adding side and rear stays helps the jib and spinnaker hold their shape better.
When adding all kinds of sail area you have to be aware of the AMA flotation. I widened my TI quite a bit to increase flotation on the AMA's so I can fly more sail area. When pushing the boat I still need to hike out to counterbalance the boat. Nearly all sails out there kind of depend on having a rigid mast (stays and shrouds). This is why it's pretty difficult to add sails from other types of boats to islands, they are not expecting the bendy mast, which complicates matters quite a bit. Another potential issue when adding big sails is on the TI the main mast is mounted very far foward on the hull. When adding big sails the sails tend to dive the boat, (what I call nautilus mode), I added a 2-3 ft bowsprit to mine to increase the gap between sails (so I can get air in there), and tilt all the foresails so they also create lift (to pull the bow out of the water). Without the bowsprit the boat tends to pitchpole
and dive when you are running big sails.
Most don't bother with any of this stuff, they prefer to just use the boat as it comes from the factory.
If you want a high performance boat it might be best to start with something else.
Hope this helps explain stuff
FE
Edit: also keep in mind the mainsail on the TI is really small and short. It's only 90 sq ft and only about 18 ft tall, and mounted very far forward on the hull. Actually I have thought about trying to retrofit a hobie 16 sail and mast to mine (readily available if you buy an old parts boat with bad hulls). You would need quite a bit of rake on the mast to get the center of effort back far enough, and the boom would be very low at the back. I have no plans to do this, like I said it's probably much less effort to buy an old h16 and fix it up for your go fast days, then just use the island for what it was designed for (two different boats).
Another option is to convert to wing sails, but that is a great deal of work and engineering. Many of the guys just add outboards to even out the performance window and range on their islands.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:00 pm 
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Fusion, Can you walk is through the process to lengthen the akas?

Frog


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:03 am 
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Frog:
Before taking on the project drill out the rivet and remove the plastic plug on the end of one of your aka bars. You will see it's a high quality very high precision aluminum extrusion. Measure the dimensions of the outside and inside profiles accurately.
Do not cut your AKA bars until you have the extensions completely done and ready for insertion, this way if you muff it , and decide to back out up you don't have to go buy $800 dollars worth of AKA bars, just put a new rivet in the plug and your back where you started, what I call a painless installation, (I do this with everything, and every mod I have ever done is reversible so I can always put the boat back to factory when it comes time to sell).


You need to measure the dimensions of the tube yourself, just in case Hobie has changed the design since 2012. On mine the tubes measured 1.250" OD and 1.125 ID with flats on the top and bottom that measured I think 1.000" across the flats (I don't recall the exact dimension, it was a couple three years ago when I made the extensions).
I then went on line and ordered 4pc of 1 1/4 aluminum ( 360-t6 aircraft grade) 1/8" wall thickness aluminum, precut to 16" long. I also ordered 4 pieces 6" long, (so I can undo the mod if it didn't work). Only you can deside how far you want the extensions, I did all the math calculations and figured out with my sail area to make the boat untippable I had to extend the AMA's 1 ft per side more. Since my 33sq ft foresail is a wing sail the side force is less than half of a conventional sail. For example if you are planning a 40-45 sq ft conventional genoa, 12" extension might not be enough, (you would need 15-18 inches per side ( I advise doing the math before proceeding with anything).

Buying the 1/8 wall tubing was a huge booboo on my part, I should have ordered either solid alum or 1/4" wall thickness (if available). I ended up having to blacksmith pound all my tubes out of round on the ends so I would have enough wall thickness across the flats, (huge mistake).
If you get the right size aluminum you only need to sand flats on the top and bottom 3 1/4 inches from each end. I used my disk sander because I no longer have access to any machine shops. Your tolerance will be +\- .002" inches, if you can't do it freehand just take to a local machine shop, or have the whole works made at a machine shop (that alum is usually in stock at most tool shops, plus they know where to order it (that's what they do for a living afterall).
Once everything is made, and all ends fit nicely into, the end of that one AKA bar that you took the end off of (that's your template btw). Then you can proceed to the next stage. On mine I measured about 5" from where the curvature of the AKA bar ends, so I have at least 3" of unbent tubing to fit the tubes into, then measured all the tubes and cut them all to the same length, (don't mix them up).
I marked all my extensions with a scribe line 3" from each end. I then gobbed everything up with clear GE silicone and shoved them in. Once in place I drilled and tapped a couple 8/32 holes on the bottom of each joint (on the flats), then put in 8/32 stainless screws to hold them in (2 screws per joint). After putting the screws in spray the whole works with clear coat spray paint, make sure you saturate the screws. I also dipped all the screws in silicone before screwing them in (this prevents galvanic corrosion later on).
I spray painted mine black and if you desire you can wrap the whole works with 3m electrical tape (like you would bike handlebars), I always wrap my aka bars with electrical tape so they don't get all banged up when you throw them around.
Ended up being the best mod I have done, now when I'm peddling on quiet water both AMA's are completely out of the water and I can peddle the same speeds with the AMA's on or off it doesn't matter. When sailing the lowered AMA planes nicely on top of the water, I've had it out in pretty fierce winds testing with all sails out and I can't bury the AMA's at all. I estimate I nearly doubled my AMA flotation ability.
The AMA's fold in and out no different from before, however an added benefit now the arms are longer, I can kayak now with the AMA's folded in with both AMA's completely out of the water. I just pull them out of the water and tie them together with a bungy or rope, so there is no ama drag at all when peddling skinny water, this is huge. I can now launch my kayak inland a mile or two from shore on skinny water and canals, I pedal out under all the low bridges in pure kayak mode with almost no loss of speed (besides the extra weight of course). Once I get into the ocean I raise all my sails, open the AMA's, tilt the engines down, and I'm in full sailing mode, (actually tri-power mode).
Last year we camped at Oscar Sheer state park, I launched onto the skinny river thru the park (no motors allowed), with the motors tilted up of course. I peddled the mile or so out to the ocean under about 5 low bridges, once I got into open water I swung the Ama's out, raised all the sails dropped the motors and sailed down to stump pass and back, well Actually I got bored just short of stump pass so I turned around (but I could see it, just guessin I was within a mile or two). I then sailed back cleaned up (dropped the masts, tilted the engines up, and folded and jacked the AMA's up then peddled back to the campsite in pure kayak mode.
When folded in the AMA's are now even with the back of the hull.
Actually the mod ended up being so trouble free, I kind of forgot about it.
Lol I had those extension cut and ready to go for a whole year before getting the guts together to saw the aka bars off the boat, and made 6" inserts up just in case I wanted to undo the change. If I ever sell the boat I will put the 6" plugs in and put the boat back to stock.
Hope this helps
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:23 am 
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NickW wrote:
I find the idea of a stay-less shroud-less boat so utterly foreign as to be sacrilegious. I'm trying to Rig shrouds but the furling mast has me stymied. In any event, these summer doldrums are getting me down.

Cheers

Nick


I've sailed many many hundreds of miles in all kinds of conditions in a boat with two unstayed masts. There is nothing to worry about from a properly engineered boat. Shrouds and stays add weight, windage, cost and complication. Add them only if you want more weight, windage, cost and complication on your boat.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:26 am 
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FE,
Can you provide some pics of the aka mod?
Did you make completely new akas or modify the existing ones?
Did you shorten the vertical aka section that goes in the ama to get more ama height, or is the extra height just due to the added lenght and angle?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Unfortunately photobucket stopped hosting pictures so all my pictures are lost forever, and I have no means to post any further pics.
I described everything I did a couple lines up.
Only after I was sure that the extensions I made would fit into the end that I pulled the endcap off, did I proceed with cutting my existing aka's. They sat on my bench for a whole year while I pondered the mod and tried to work out the results mathematically, then finally got the guts to cut my existing aka bars (replacement AKA bars are like $200 each, I didn't want to muff things up).

The aka bars are mounted at an upward angle to the boat, just extending the AKA a foot or so longer per side raises them out of the water completely while underway, (not sailing).
FE


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:21 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
Unfortunately photobucket stopped hosting pictures so all my pictures are lost forever, and I have no means to post any further pics.
I described everything I did a couple lines up.
Only after I was sure that the extensions I made would fit into the end that I pulled the endcap off, did I proceed with cutting my existing aka's. They sat on my bench for a whole year while I pondered the mod and tried to work out the results mathematically, then finally got the guts to cut my existing aka bars (replacement AKA bars are like $200 each, I didn't want to muff things up).

The aka bars are mounted at an upward angle to the boat, just extending the AKA a foot or so longer per side raises them out of the water completely while underway, (not sailing).
FE


Great work man!
Thanks for the inspiration!
:)
All the best!
/Gustav

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:31 am 
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Yea all the mods I ever make break all the rules of conventional wisdom and definately never follow mainstream thinking and sailing knowledge. I suspect this has a lot to do with so many books and people out there who have been doing the same exact stuff for many years, (sailing boats and sails haven't changed much in thousands of years).
Think about it all sail boats are totally dependent on favorable winds coming from a certain direction as the primary power source. The problem with that is the wind is not dependable and in my case more often than not is not favorable to the direction I want to go. For example the trade winds off key west are great, I can launch my TI with all my sails (mainly the big spinnaker), and the thing just flies downwind at incredible speeds, which is awesome. However at some time I have to stop and turn around and head back to the island, upwind... when my TI was stock I had great difficulty sailing upwind any closer than 45-50 degrees off the wind, (without any jib), and with a conventional designed jib I could get a few points closer to the wind and maybe 1-2mph faster speed. Which meant a tremendous amount of tacking like a W, and peddling like a wildman past the point of exhaustion just to get back to the island. In otherwords 15 minutes of pure thrills sailing at 15mph sailing out maybe 5 miles (out to the coral reefs,,,(we are scuba divers)) turns into 10 hrs of totally exhausing horror trying to get back to the island against the wind and current, (which is nearly always north to south at 4-5mph in that area).
For this reason I always state " know your boats real capabilities, not imagined" before venturing offshore. We on more than one occation didn't get back in till after 11:00 at night totally exhausted. It's a sickening feeling sailing like mad at pretty good speed tacking back and forth like a pro, then after an hr or so realizing that your VMG (velocity made good) is minus 1-2 mph, even though you are sailing like mad you are being blown out to sea , (I always joke,, next stop cuba).
Then theirs the situation of the wind completely dying to near nothing most every day in the late afternoon (around Sarasota typically), your sails end up as wet noodles and you end up peddling 5 miles back to launch. Sure beats having to paddle a windrider 17 back to launch, but still totally exhausting none the less.
Then there are the sudden storms that come up without notice nearly every day thru the summer thru out south florida and the keys. We have been caught out several times in 30+mph winds and 4-5ft seas, not fun. It's not like looking on the radar and seeing a big red blob moving west to east, which you can anticipate, you check the radar and there is nothing, then I giant red blob forms right over your head from nothing. More than once we have been caught out in Sarasota or Tampa bays in 30-35mph winds and 4-5ft washing machine chop with vertical walls, hanging on for dear life trying not to capsize. One thing we noticed about our stock TI is the rudder is tiny, and you can only peddle so long with high intensity. It's near impossible to keep the boat nose into the big waves, and if the big waves hit you broadside the boat flips if you don't scramble out onto the tramps, basically if you remain in the seat you will capsize, and it's impossible to navigate the boat. Even more dangerous is any of those waves hitting you can and will shear your AKA shear pins (insta capsize), and the waves tossing the boat around like a rag doll in a washing machine almost always snaps the rudder pin. We have tried many times to steer the boat with a paddle after our rudder snapped off with zero success.
I'm not tryin to scare anyone here, I'm just conveying all the stuff that has happened to us in real life, (not imagined).
These adventure boats in my opinion are recreational boats that do fine on lakes and protected waters like bays and the ICW (intercoastal waterways) in predictable and moderate conditions as they are equipped from the factory, ( thus the EC 'D' rating).
I'm just stating that it scares me watching some of the videos some of the guys post, knowing full well the disasters I have encountered offshore on basically stock un-hardened AI/TI's. My opinion is your upwind capabilities need to closely match your downwind capabilities. And your boat should be able to perform independent of the natural wind, strength and direction, and no wind at all, (yea that happens too). For the last reason alone is why I will never own another boat that doesn't have mirage drives.
The coolest features of them all on these boats is, mine as modified is what I would consider a high performance complex boat, (complex meaning multiple sails, I have a main, jib, and spinnaker). To the best of my knowledge it's the only car toppable boat out there with such capabilities (your not going to get a 450 lb windrider 17 on your roof, just saying). And as long time kayakers ourselves we often leave all the extras back at our campsite and just use the boat as a kayak. We have owned many different kayaks and our TI turns out to be the fastest and most versatile kayak we have ever owned (bar none). To the point we sold our 24ft sea ray and all of our other kayaks (we had many), and only use the TI anymore for anything and everything we can imagine, (and we imagine a lot).

I wish Hobie had a super TI that is capable of cruising 8-10 mph VMG regardless of actual wind speed and direction, with a stronger ama system and rudder, with complex sails (hopefully furlable wing sails which I feel are better). With a removable planing type hull (like a removable slipper that the boat sits in). The slipper would also increase the flotation capacity to 1000 lbs. yet still completely car toppable, and can still be used as a really good kayak.
That's my wish list, I already got mine (lol). Obviousy the new boat would need to be at least 12 ft wide (same width as the WR17), the same AMA's would be used.
FE


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