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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
fusioneng wrote:
Yea no kidding, I'm out there every single weekend 90% of the time these are the conditions 10 months out of the year, some weekends in the summer I'm the only sail boat out there....Basically my boat is rigged for the conditions I have to live in.
You guys have it made, you don't need any of that crap.
Bob
Yup, we get all depressed and moody when the wind drops below 10mph. :cry: And there's been a lot of that this year.

You would really enjoy watching the Hobie races on days when the tradewinds reverse and start gusting from the "wrong" direction. :lol: Lots of carnage.

I tip my cap to sailors who must navigate strong tides and inconsistent winds. And engineers who figure out stuff on their own.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:25 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Hey Bob,
What Nohuhu said!
With such light average winds (and your power boating background :wink: ) I understand why you have made those extraordinary mods to your TI.
Looking forward to reading all about your latest project. A furlable wing sail would be a great achievement. Judging by what you've already achieved if any body could do it ...it would be you.
Thanks for taking the time to post your amazing mods! 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:42 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I went out today in winds 25 mpg gusting to 35 mph, of course not on purpose, it all came up on me.

here is the wind report:

Image

The winds were only supposed to be around 10 mph today so I was quite surprised when they picked up so high, I had no idea until after I got out there, and it kept building higher once I got out, unfortunately I had to fight around 7 miles directly up wind, (felt like the SS minnow, a 3 hour tour)

A bunch of the guys on the forum only go out in higher winds and seem to have a blast on their TI's. I'm not seeing the attraction, it was extremely rough with 3 ft plus breakers and rollers, plus my return trip was seven miles directly into the wind. I found out my boat cannot sail directly into the wind when the winds are this high (normally no problem in low winds), I actually had to tack. The closest to the wind I could get with the wing sail was around 20-25 degrees off the wind. However I could only get up to around 6mph upwind. Because of the high gusts I had to furl the main sail in over half way. In retrospect I probably should have furled my main in completely, and just sailed on the wing.
One of my engines quit shortly after going out (while the winds were still light), and I never bothered to try to re-start it (just dragged it thru the water all day, LOL). I should have seen the signs and should have went home at that point. However I was doing fine in a nice 8-10 mph downwind (clipping along at about 10-12 mph (on one engine)), and was around 8 miles downwind when the wind picked up, the trip back was directly into the wind nearly all the way, gusting to 35 mph quite a often.

Its actually kind of funny when I got home I checked to see how much fuel I used today, I only used about a half liter of gas all day (covered close to 15 miles), since the one motor quit early on it didn't use any fuel today, and it ended up way too rough to go back and try to fix it out on the water. I would have felt a lot safer with both motors running (and probably would have been able to sail much faster).

Of course my TI is extensively modified with wing sails, engines, and is hardened for offshore, the question I have for all these guys that sail in these conditions all the time, and love it on stock TI's, the question I have is how in the heck do you guys sail upwind in those conditions, I've tried it without my gadgets, and it is totally impossible for me to make headway in those conditions without my gadgets, "How in the heck do you do it". To be perfectly honest I would not have felt safe out there on a stock TI today....
Bob


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:31 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
I have not attempted sailing to windward at anything much over 25knots (29mph), but I was able to make progress by reducing the sail considerably, but more importantly, "see-sawing" through the waves. This involved bearing away slightly on the back of each wave and then steering up into the face of the next one. This zig-zagging seems to add up to reasonable progress upwind, but certainly not at a particularly high angle. The logic says that steering up minimises resistance from the wave as the hulls present the smallest "target", while on the back of the wave, the slight downhill enables more speed to build up before attacking the next wave,

I think the critical factor is to reduce sail area to the point where you only have a bit too much out in the gusts, rather than being smashed in the gusts and burying the leeward ama, and wiping out forward speed.

I look forward to other contributions...

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:04 pm 
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Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Not much to say but wanted to try my new signature.
You see, I'm not diving etc. like Bob so I always head out up wind.
Drives the Mrs crazy until we head for home with a following wind running with the waves.

Yeah, that signature is OK but will keep working on a better photo.

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Cheers, Brian in South Australia
Tandem Island -
Image


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:25 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Brian:
What would be a realy cool shot for your signature would be a live action shot of the front of your boat at a slight angle (showing water splashes) shot right from water level (just before the boat plows into your camera man (lol). All from an ultra wide angle lens (like from a gopro (fish eye and all)).
Coolest boat name ever.

Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:47 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I went out sailing today in Sarasota Bay, there were quite a few larger boats out, and a couple cats, but I saw no other TI's (whats up with that...),

The winds were very low (like usual), and actually fairly steady coming mostly from the south east. My original plan was to sail up to Egmont Key and back (about 40 miles rounds trip) but the winds were a little to light for that so I ended going up to Anna Maria Island and back (about 20 miles round trip). I ran aground up there (again) in shallow water (really hard to navigate that area because it shallow pretty much everywhere), I got frustrate and ended up turning around and heading back (it was downwind sailing all the way up there, so it was a little boring without my spinnaker.
Here are the wind plots for the day.
Image

Image

If I had to guess the average wind was around 5mph mostly from the S, Anna Maria is due north of City Island (where I launch).

I had a long distance to cover and in light winds (5 mph) downwind, (a stock TI does around 3mph in those conditions ), I passed about a dozen cruiser boats with massive sails, most looked to be going around 4-5 mph, all of us sailing in the same direction.

My boat goes best either upwind or downwind in light winds, where I tack back and forth about 20 degrees off the wind upwind, and 160 degrees on downwind with the wind coming from my rear quarter. When sailing at 180 degrees downwind I can't get my wing sail to take its assymetric shape, I have to have something from the side that I can re-direct in order to create my own apparent wind.

Normal operation on my boat is I typically start the engines when I go out, lock the throttle at about 1/4 throttle, with my high pitch props, this propels the boat (with no sails) to about 5-6 mph. I then start sailing and do my best to maximize the efficiency of the sails, and pedal the mirage at a steady pace (about 40-50 cycles per minute), this normally gets me to an average cruising speed of around 8 mph with a few jumps to 10-11 mph once in a while. Sailing this way I consistently get between 80 and 100 mpg with my motors, and about 2 1/2 to 3 hrs of run time per 1 liter tank ( I literally do this pretty much every weekend for my exercise program.).

This week since I had more distance to cover than normal, and the winds were pretty steady and the water was pretty flat, I thought I would increase the throttles on the engines and see if I could average 10 mph (that's just two more mph than normal).
Well I was able to maintain about 10mph (in 5 mph winds) downwind (2x windspeed), but at what price. I measured how much fuel I used total when I got home, and I used 1 whole gallon of fuel just to travel 20 miles, that comes out to 20 mpg (the absolute worst fuel economy I have ever had). I suspect the majority of that fuel was used on the downwind leg since on the way back it was almost directly upwind (the best point of sail on my boat is about 15-20 degrees off the wind (really close hauled)) so I cut the motors back to 1/4 throttle all the way back and was able to maintain my normal 8-9 mph all the way back with a couple 10-11 mph jumps.
Lessens learned:
When you have a hybrid powered boat resist the temptation to try to go faster than the design intent, I used five times the normal amount of gas to try and average just 2 mph faster average speed. This reminds me of a Honda CVCC car that I had once that had advertised fuel economy of 50 mpg (this was a long time ago). I used the car to drive back and forth to work (about 120 miles round trip) every day. In order to get the advertised fuel economy I think the car was designed to slow down to around 30 mph going up hills, then just get over the hill (barely), and I suspect you weren't supposed to do more than about 45 mph max, (actually with the pedal floored I could get up to about 60 mph on level ground, even faster downhill LOL) well apparently I don't drive the way they intended and would have the accelerator on the floor all the way to work and back and only got around 15 to 20 mpg all the time I owned the car (so I sold it and bought a Porsche instead).
Now I know I have to finish my main wing sail.

It was an interesting day to say the least, and I got my exercise in for this weekend (actually pedaled over 30 miles this weekend in total)
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:46 pm 
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Location: Adelaide, South Australia
A great photo idea Bob.
When are you coming over with your GoPro to take it for me.
Happy to give you directions and accommodation. :D
The Galaxy S5 is only rated splashproof in fresh water.
The things you find out after purchase. :(

I am still reading up on the wing sails from your links.
Still a way to go to get a good understanding before building.
Certainly, let us know how the new sail goes.
And don't hold back and make it a short article :lol:

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Cheers, Brian in South Australia
Tandem Island -
Image


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:23 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
A blast from the past:
I was chatting with one of the cool guys in the area who owns trifoiler 41, we see each other and usually chat most weekends at the launch near Sarasota Sailing squadron here in Sarasota FL, really a great guy.

We were just chatting one day and he shot a video of me talking about my wing jib.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhpTmP ... e=youtu.be


Enjoy
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:16 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Everyone knows I'm an inventor and I don't think like anyone else (LOL). Many of my inventions are to try and buy the world a little more time until we can come up with a viable replacement for fossil fuel.

Here is an interesting video I found that pretty much outlines exactly what I have been trying to do, it interesting to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_XRWhS7978


Unfortunately these guys got a little carried away and lost in the weeds (way over 'thunk' technology wise) but their hearts are in the right place, and they are correct in most of what they say in regards to wasted energy.

This is why I think boats like the TI are the future of pleasure boating.

Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:11 pm 
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I'm pretty sure I can design a soft wing symmetric main sail with automatic assymmetric switching (same as my current design) based on the eppler 420 airfoil. The sail would be fully furl able and when not engaged it would harmlessly weathervane (like the current design). I like the idea of the tail which would work like the elevator on a plane to set the sail to the ideal angle of attack in relation to the apparent wind. This would mean the sail would have no control lines of any kind, and would be totally automatic eventually (initially manual controls will be used to control the elevator/tail). The main sail for the ti will be 4 ft wide very low aspect (almost square) and 20ft tall ( 80 sq ft). Since wing sails have almost no heeling there should be no capsize problem. Actually my design will be much superior and more powerful than the design in the video, there design looked to have problems tracking in variable wind (not a really good wing design). Plus weighing 600 lbs their sail is a monster (they really got lost in the weeds lol), mine will be under 10-15 lbs (not including the hobie carbon mast weight and it extension). Setup should be a snap just drop into the mast pocket then unfurl and hook up the boom on the base (just like current design), tracking at the top will be handled by the elevator/tail so I don't think any control lines will be needed.
The current jib will be eliminated (no need for anything else).
Now let's all understand this is not a sail and doesn't use any of the principles a sail would use. This is apparent wind amplifier (same as current design). Basically the way it works is it takes your forward motion and amplifies the air going over the wing (similar to an air conditioner). The actual natural wind direction is not at all important (same as the current design), and also works with no natural wind (like current design).
I have most of the materials (I estimate the cost to be around $500 to make everything). This thing will be so simple to use (no sailing knowledge needed of any kind) whereas if any air passes over the wing it automatically amplifies when engaged, and just harmlessly weather vanes when not engaged (super simple). This is going to be really fun, but will be really boring to operate since everything will be totally automatic.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:11 pm 
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
Have fun!

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2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

  • Trampolines
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  • Davis Spar Fly
  • Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:26 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I've been laid up with back problems for the last couple months, and have not been able to go out.
The weather was beautiful and sunny Sunday (high was 83), and the winds were very light (around 5 mph, and the water was very flat, the way I like it (because of my back)).
I was able to go out and made another very boring video. I think the hard thing to realize watching all my videos is at least in my experience running a stock TI in 5mph winds and pedaling 100% of the time I am only able to average around 3 mph speed (maybe I'm just a really bad sailer). I am committed to try to go at least 10-15 miles total distance every time I go out, at 3 mph that comes out to 5-6 hrs on the water. Another problem we have around here (and Key West) are strong currents, if I am trying to go out big pass with a 5 mph current the wrong way, I simply can't get out the pass at all. Actually with a stock TI even when you have good wind, it's still pretty impossible to get thru the passes when the tide is running.
Actually even if I stay away from the passes, just the regular currents in the bay makes headway and covering any significant distance, especially since because the intercoastal is narrow but long, 80%-90% of the time I'm traveling either upwind or downwind (very seldom on a reach).
Maybe I totally wrong on all this and nobody has any difficulty or struggles in low winds (unfortunately these are the winds we get 90% of the time around here (4-7mph)).
Well here is the video, I feel good that I was finally able to get out again.

Warning (extremely boring)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfL7KxL ... e=youtu.be



Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:36 am 
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Glad your back is a little better. Good to see you back out on the water!

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2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

  • Trampolines
  • Hobie cover
  • Davis Spar Fly
  • Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
  • Spine Board Hakas


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:00 pm 
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Location: Bethany, OK
The only problem I have with 4-7 MPH winds is that it's almost impossible to get here! :lol: Seems like we get either dead calm (rarely) or 15-20 and gusty!

Fortunately I do enjoy splashing in the waves, but it sure is nice to glide across a smooth lake now and then... (Whether sailing or paddling/pedaling.) I probably won't be as affected by the slower speed as you since the lakes available to me aren't all that big to begin with. The ones right in town that I'd be on most often are only a couple miles across at the widest point anyway.

I'm still trying to figure out who broke the laws of physics on the Youtube videos where they're going crazy in a (supposedly) 15 MPH wind but there's almost no waves on the water! A long, skinny lake with a crosswind maybe? -- Though now I think about it there have been days like that on one lake nearby. I remember a particularly windy social paddle where we talked with some sailors who said it was crazy - lots of wind, but almost flat water.


I enjoyed the video! I'm constantly scouring Youtube for longer AI/TI videos that just cruise along for a while. I'm weird that way... :mrgreen:


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