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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:48 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
Jim:
I'm pretty sure it was spring 2012 when you came down, you were thinking about getting an AI so I took you out and let you sail mine for a while. It was probably the worst influence of your life with all my mods and gadgets (lol). 90% of what I was using then is still being used today (ie... The mast topper system, the bowsprit, the motor mount, all the PVC furlers, all the masts, and the spinnaker is the same exact stuff I had originally all made in 2010. Obviously all of it looks like crap now after 6 yrs of really hard use. Hey I figure if it all still works fine why not, I'm just out to have fun not win a beauty contest (lol)
The spinnaker mast is just 1/2" PVC pipe. Actually the PVC furlers for the jib and the spinnaker I made originally for our Oasis and one of our old Revos back in 2008, I had sold those boats a long time ago and the furlers were just laying in the garage.
Obviously I made the new wing jib 3yrs ago and mounted in the old jib mast (which is an old painters extension pole) so you haven't seen the wing jib.
All I did with the old spin is sew on the wing stuff on top of the old sail. The old spin was a really puffy g2 type spinnaker sail. Just recently I cut it way back and converted it to a code zero (much flatter now, but not as flat as a real code zero.
With the old spinnaker the only attachment points were at the bottom and top. When the spinnaker was deployed it was completely separate from the furler pole. To get it to furl tight I had to keep tension on the control line during furling, I sometimes had to do it twice because it was too loose the first try. BTW It's pretty important for it to furl tight, some of it might have to do with how the sail is cut.
With the new upwind spinnaker it is attached to the pole all the way up, attached every 8" inches or so with air slit in between each of the attachment points. With enough wind the wing part blows up like a balloon and becomes rigid (however I need 8mph wind for that to happen. I suspect I just got lucky and it wraps nice and tightly around the pole but I still have to keep tension on both the furler and control lines when furling/unfurling.
We are only talking about ten bucks of PVC here, It wouldn't hurt to just tie your hobie spinnaker to some 1/2" pvc and see if it furls to your liking if you like furlers vs spin chute bags. If you ever watch Sewsew deploy his it is indeed a sight to behold. Or you can copy the one on WETA's they are also way cool.
However having big sails furled up can cause havoc if the wind pics up, you need to have halyards so you can drop them and lay them on the deck if it kicks up (thats what Randy Smythe does I'm pretty sure). However whenever I drop the sails I have to climb back to the back of the boat unclip the halyard line and walk it back to the front of the boat and pull it tight so the halyards can't tangle in other crap, haven't figured out a workaround for that one yet, fortunately I don't need to do that very often. Part of the price you have to pay having a complex boat (lol).
Hope this helps
FE
Bob, I've had an AI since 2007 so you might be mixing me up with someone else but I do remember sailing with you on your impressive heavily modded boat. And I've got most of the components - topper, a halyard to raise a furling spinnaker and all the other stuff since I did it before with an inferior sail. But it had a pocket where I could run a pvc pipe which I found necessary for a tight furl. I was just wondering how yours worked.

I'm not sure how I would "tie" the spinnaker to a piece of pvc without sewing something on the spinnaker to thread the pvc pipe through. At least in the middle. Not comfortable sewing a sail but may see if I can con the wife to give it a try. Do you have any pictures of the pvc threaded / attachments to your sails? Thanks,


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:16 pm 
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Jim:
I just drilled a couple small holes at the top and bottom of the PVC pipe. I then just put a couple loops of spectra and just tied to the eyelets at the top and bottom. I'll try to find an old video of it flying.
FE

Here is an old video of the spinnaker only attached at the top and bottom to the PVC pole

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEBLE1cIrfU


FE


Last edited by fusioneng on Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:56 am 
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Keep in mind my mast topper doesn't have any bearings in it outside of a crest tooth paste tube filled with grease slid over the 1.25 dia vertical post of the mast topper (hey it works until I buy a real sealed bearing and mount it (someday, been delaying for 6 yrs now because everything I do is by hand in my garage (don't have access to a machine shop anymore (none down here that I know, not a manufacturing area here, (last place on earth a tool maker would want to live (lol)).
As a result whenever I want to furl the main I have to release the tension on the spinnaker halyard a little so I can furl the main. It's not a big deal since the rear halyard runs thru one of the harkin cleats on the front aka crossbar. I don't have this problem with the jib halyard which works flawlessly. Actually I've grown to hate that giant loop to the back of the boat for the spinnaker halyard line. Which is probably why I left that giant spinnaker in the garage the last 3 yrs.
Actually while writing this I just figured out how to eliminate that giant loop. I'm going to attempt to add a pulley to the front of the mast topper right next to the mast, then run both halyard lines down the same tube (the tube that protects the jib halyard line. This would eliminate all the stress on the mast topper.
Hey if it works I'll post it. If not the spinnaker will be going in the dumster (lol).

I learned a long time ago, if something isn't rock solid reliable, and you use it all the time, and serves some useful neccessary purpose then it stays on the boat, if not it's gone in a heartbeat.

FE


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:48 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Here is an old video of the spinnaker only attached at the top and bottom to the PVC pole
FE
Thanks Bob !

This is exactly what I was wondering. If you could furl with only the top and bottom attachment points (to pvc) and still fly the spinnaker with the pvc pipe hanging out in the middle. If it works I will get the wife to sew a pocket for it in the future.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:02 pm 
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Well my upwind spinnaker ended up being an utter failure. It turns out the apparent wind created by your forward motion causes the sail to collapse (who knew lol). The wing part was working and becoming rigid as air rushed in the air slits, however the large parabolic shaped sail just collapsed and luffed right behind where the wing ended, caused by the wind created by the forward motion. The winds were very light maybe 5mph, perhaps it will work in heavier winds. So the spinnaker will likely go back in the garage because it's of no use on my tri-power setup.

The good news is I got rid of my rear halyard loop that went to the back of the boat. I've had several versions of those rear stay/halyard loops and never got any of them to work worth a darn. Basically I ran the spinnaker halyard down the same pvc tube the jib halyard runs down, now I can easily furl the main even with the spin out (lightly loaded of course).

I suppose If I ever want to go out just regular sailing the old fashion way, I'll be sure to bring my upwind spinnaker.
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:11 am 
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Well as promised here are the pics of my re-routed formerly rear looped spinnaker stay/halyard line. I have done quite a few variations of the big loop around the back of the boat for the spinnaker halyard, and never got any of them to work very well. The problem lies in the distance the mast topper has to be away from the mast (about 2 ft to clear the main), and the downward force on the back of the mast topper, making the mast topper very hard to spin when you furl the mainsail. Of course you can totally ignore the potential problem, and not worry about the rear stay getting all tangled up in the mainsail whenever you do anything. Or you can fix the problem.

What I did was totally eliminate the rear loop for the halyard going around the back of the boat (could never get it to work well anyway). I instead now run a fixed rear stay that just clips to the back of the boat when setting up, and thats it.
The spinnaker halyard now runs down the same 3/8" dia PVC tubing that the Jib halyard runs down (yes I have two separate halyards, one for the jib and the other for the spinnaker). I can now furl/unfurl any of the sails anytime I please easily.
Here is a pic of the complete setup with the spinnaker all furled up, and the wing jib in place. Typically when I launch I put the wing jib up, put the boom on the jib, then just let the wing jib free wheel like a weathervane until I want to use it. I have gone out in 20 mph winds and pedaled figure 8's with the wing jib just freewheeling around up at the front of the boat, it doesn't seem to create any drag to the boat and doesn't impede steering so I typically just put it up when I go out, then pull it down when I go home. Instead of furling the wing jib tight to the mast which puts a strain on the internal working of the wing, I just remove the boom, and loosely wrap the wing jib around it's mast and lay it down in the boat for transport.

Image

If I don't plan to specifically use the spinnaker that day I typically just leave the spinnaker lying down on the tramp with all the lines and furlers connected ready to haul up if I do decide to use it once out on the water.

Here is a pick of the mast topper with the now fixed (non moving) rear stay line, and the spinnaker halyard now running thru the same tubing as the jib halyard. The rear stay line is mounted inside 3/8" dia PVC tubing, this serves two purposes, one it prevents the rear stay line from fowling on the battens of the mainsail, and also when tacking the rear stay (when slack) harmlessly crosses the main when tacking without hanging up. The other purpose is if anyone has tried to maintain long ropes on their boat, they always tend to get all tangled up when putting the boat away, and you end up with a tangled mess, The PVC tubing prevents all the long lines from getting all tangled up. When I launch I just put the mast topper on, raise the mast, then just clip one clip at the back of the boat and I'm done.
Image

Here is a pick of where the two halyard lines come out at the bottom. I just hoist the jib, then the spinnaker and cleat them in the cleats on the front AKA cross bar at the cleat positions Hobie happily provided for us. Notice the way the halyard lines are ran, they wrap around the back of the AKA bar, around the bottom then back up and into the cleat, this is the most sure and trouble free way to run lines into the cleats.
Image


Now the sad story, I hadn't used my spinnaker in 3 yrs, it just hung in the garage unused since building the wing jib. A couple years ago I wanted more room in the garage so I hack sawed 5 inches off the end of my bowsprit so I could get more room in the garage. Huge mistake, now I have to make a new bowsprit because the gap between the spin and the jib is too narrow, and the spin no longer creates enough lift on the bow to prevent the boat from pitchpoling, (duh)
Image

Of course I understand having a complex boat (with massive sailsets (240 sq ft) is not everyones cup of tea. It's just we go offshore quite a bit, and with a stock TI have gone out of Key West and were unable to get back in (blown out to sea) the first few time out years ago, since then we have never taken our TI offshore without the extra capabilities. Basically if your boat only goes 3mph, it's probably not a good idea to take it offshore (just common sense).

Again this summer we will be taking off for adventures unknown with our camper in tow, and the Ultimate Tandem Island on the roof (can't use the trailer when towing our camper). This year we are going to lake Hartwell in GA. I know of no other complex sailboat out there that you can cartop besides my rig, (good luck getting a 450 lb WR17 on your roof ( lol))

FE

EDIT:
It's nice that Hobie has finally came out with a pretty decent spinnaker kit, I suspect the spinnaker kit will not be for everyone (different strokes for different folks). I'm not in any way trying to knock Hobies spinnaker kit, or compete with it (all my stuff is strictly only for my own personal use, and honestly most of it is very old and worn out now). I'm just sharing how I overcame some issues with my setup in the hope others can possibly use some of the ideas if they want to (most are not interested).

Edit: Saturday 4-16-16 I lengthened the front of the bowsprit 8 inches longer that what is shown in the pic (the extension is removable so I can still store in the garage). Now the spacing between the spinnaker and the jib should be correct, and the spin should be tilted far enough forward to create lift to the bow and prevent the dreaded pitchpole (lol).


Last edited by fusioneng on Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:23 pm 
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Thank you very much for posting the pictures Bob. I only wish you posted them 24 hours earlier :? Yesterday I spent the entire day in the driveway working with the Hobie Spinnaker to experiment finding the most efficient way to use it. I tried many alternative combinations unsuccessfully. After about 8 hours I had enough and put everything away. I've done this in the past with my older AI and a jib without any problems. The new AI is a different animal and the spinnaker is logistically different than my old jibs. And therein lies the dilemma.

I really really really really really want to get the new Hobie Spinnaker working tangle free on my boat and one of the pictures you posted may be the clue to solve the one problem I couldn't figure out yesterday. The tube / pvc for the halyard line. You wrote about that before but for some reason it never clicked. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. I had everything working pretty good yesterday except for the halyard line tangling the mainsail (as usual) was driving me crazy. My topper just couldn't handle it even after modifying the topper (my own design) multiple times. But the pvc tube might work so in a few days I'll visit it again and give one last try to configure a 100% tangle free Hobie spinnaker. Oh and I did get one of those pultrusions you were talking about for the rear halyard line. It worked great and is lightweight. Better than the stainless rod I was using.

Let's get together soon and do some sailing. Ft. Desoto maybe ??

Thanks again,


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:06 pm 
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Jim:
Sometimes it's really hard to explain stuff sorry for the wordy responses.

Yea my idea for the 1/4" pultrusion was pretty simple really. The idea was to abandon the big loop rear stay/halyard line altogether, and convert the rear stay to a light line fixed stay (just tied at the top and clipped at the bottom (no movement of the line). Then I talked about placing that line into some 3/8" dia PVC tubing in order to prevent that line when lax (like when going upwind), from catching on the mainsail and especially on the battens. The idea was to run the pultrusion straight out the back of the mast topper (held down by hose clamps to the outside of the topper), with a eyelett at the back for the stay line to slip thru (don't need a pulley really). Then with no load at all on the mast you would tie the rear stay line to the back of the Hobie mast topper, then thru the eyelett at the back of the 2 ft long 1/4" dia pultrusion extention, then clip the line down at the back of the boat, the line does not need to be tight at all, and the fiberglass pultrusion should only have a very very slight bend in it when there is no load at all on the main mast (it should not interfere with furling/unfurling the main at all and should clear everything. The rear stay line at this point is only used as an anti-rotation devise for the mast topper, and doesn't come into play at all when there is no load anywhere.
Next re-route the halyard line so it comes out just behind the front pulley on the mast topper, It will likely help very much if you tie a loop of spectra line to some 3/8" dia PVC pipe and run the halyard line down to the outer harkin cleat on the left side of the boat (similar to the pictures of mine. Look at the picture of mine you will see the halyard line wraps around the outside of the front AKA cross brace (outside of where it attaches to the hull), then around and thru the harkin cleat (this keeps the halyard well clear of the main while furling, the 3/8" dia PVC will not get caught up on the battens ( I've been running that way for 6 yrs and never had a hangup)). It's kind of important to always keep some kind of tension on that halyard (never let it slack too much).
Now whenever you plan to furl/unfurl the main, you can always release a tiny bit of tension on the halyard, then once the main is at the position you want just tug the tension back onto the halyard. Actually with a spinnaker the halyard doesn't really need to be pulled as tight as a jib halyard would need to be pulled anyway.

Now when you are pushing the spinnaker very hard the top of the mast wants to bend forward (that's a bad thing for two reasons, first being the mast base can only take a small amount of forward force before breaking that 1/4" stud at the bottom of the hull, and two, if the top of the mast pushes too far forward the bow of the boat dives underwater (not enough flotation on the hull, and the main mast is mounted too far forward on the TI). The static rear stay line you added should cure all this. Even if under load, and the fiberglass pultrusion bends quite a bit, it's not going to break, and it will work as a great automatic tensioner for that rear stay line.
Think about if your pushing downwind really hard, with a huge load on the spinnaker and the mast, there is no way your going to be trying to furl the main in or our while the spin is fully loaded, so it's doesn't matter if that 1/4" dia pultrusion is bent down during that time.

When I was trying to describe the 1/4" dia fiberglass pultrusion, earlier ( I think on a different thread), above is what I was trying to say.

Hey I'm only trying to help here, trying to theorize what might work, at the very least give some of you guys ideas based on stuff that I know works reliably (via very hard knocks over a long period of time).

FE


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:59 am 
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After another week of multiple design changes and tweaks my new Hobie spinnaker system may be ready for testing on the water. Also fabricated a sturdy adjustable bowsprit that extends 18" forward of the bow padeye. The bowsprit slides along a ram mount type rail to extend and retract for storage or transport.

The pvc tube hanging from the forward halyard line on my custom mast topper seems to be the magic to keep the front halyard line from wrapping around the mainsail during furling. Sometimes it catches but it seems infrequent and is easily fixed by reversing the furl. And that 1/4" fiberglass pultrusion extending off the back of the topper is perfect for keeping the rear stay line off the mainsail. I've never had any luck with a looping system and am using the fixed rear stay with a clip.

The attachment points at the bottom are somewhat different than yours. I'm using a combination of my old aluminum frame setup with design changes to minimize the effect of the extra lines. And best of all, the new Hobie Spinnaker seems to like her new home.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:00 pm 
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Way to go Jim! Keep us posted on how it performs. Would love to see pics on that bowsprit.

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2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:19 pm 
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CaptnChaos wrote:
After another week of multiple design changes and tweaks my new Hobie spinnaker system may be ready for testing on the water. Also fabricated a sturdy adjustable bowsprit that extends 18" forward of the bow padeye. The bowsprit slides along a ram mount type rail to extend and retract for storage or transport.

The pvc tube hanging from the forward halyard line on my custom mast topper seems to be the magic to keep the front halyard line from wrapping around the mainsail during furling. Sometimes it catches but it seems infrequent and is easily fixed by reversing the furl. And that 1/4" fiberglass pultrusion extending off the back of the topper is perfect for keeping the rear stay line off the mainsail. I've never had any luck with a looping system and am using the fixed rear stay with a clip.

The attachment points at the bottom are somewhat different than yours. I'm using a combination of my old aluminum frame setup with design changes to minimize the effect of the extra lines. And best of all, the new Hobie Spinnaker seems to like her new home.

Jim, Sounds like you have a very successful outcome... BUT

It saddens me that apparently, a successful implementation of Hobie's new spinnaker involves:-
* Extendable bowsprit
* Replacement of halyard/backstay with separate lines
* Modification of the mast topper to extend the halyard away from the mast to the head of the sail.
* Redesign of the halyard to bring it vertically down the mast (in a yube).
* Extension to the rear of the mast topper to keep the new backstay clear of the sail

I am kinda shocked that the only parts of Hobie's spinnaker kit still used unmodified are the sail, snuffer and deck fittings.

Did Hobie get it so wrong, when penguinman used the prototype as provided in the production kit?

Jim, I am not in any way being critical of your work, but it seems hard to believe that Hobie would release a kit that needs so many modifications to be fit for purpose.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:48 pm 
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vetgam wrote:
Way to go Jim! Keep us posted on how it performs. Would love to see pics on that bowsprit.
Will do Greg
tonystott wrote:
Jim, Sounds like you have a very successful outcome... BUT

It saddens me that apparently, a successful implementation of Hobie's new spinnaker involves:-
* Extendable bowsprit
* Replacement of halyard/backstay with separate lines
* Modification of the mast topper to extend the halyard away from the mast to the head of the sail.
* Redesign of the halyard to bring it vertically down the mast (in a yube).
* Extension to the rear of the mast topper to keep the new backstay clear of the sail

I am kinda shocked that the only parts of Hobie's spinnaker kit still used unmodified are the sail, snuffer and deck fittings.

Did Hobie get it so wrong, when penguinman used the prototype as provided in the production kit?

Jim, I am not in any way being critical of your work, but it seems hard to believe that Hobie would release a kit that needs so many modifications to be fit for purpose.
I completely understand what you're saying Tony and maybe it's just me. I have the utmost respect for Jim at Hobie and feel almost guilty for taking this route because he used it without problems. I was even with Jim and took a video of him and his spinnaker when he launched for the EC.

But ultimately you're the captain of your own vessel and I feel the stock spinnaker system is too problematic ... remember, that's only my opinion ... and I'm not willing to compromise my safety. Perhaps it's Pete and I who are the problems and we both readily admit that maybe it is us. It sure would be nice to have other feedback from others with an AI2 though. Even Hobie dropped the ball on that. All they can say is "Jim used it" I'm really surprised nobody else has come forward yet since it's been a few months since they started shipping. And when Pete posted on the forum that he can tangle it 100% of the time with critical tangles that disable your mainsail there was not even a response from Hobie. And that's when I figured Hobie doesn't care. But I care, especially after spending $600 on a spinnaker that I don't want to stick in a box and chalk it off as a bad purchase. As they say, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade and that's what I'm doing here. Because bottom line ... I simply want a spinnaker on my AI. That's it. And safety on the water is my number one concern.

And some of the modifications I'm doing like the extendable bowsprit are being done because I figured while I've got everything apart I might as well do it the best I can. Plus one of my modifications will incorporate your suggestion for an adjustable back stay. But that will be in another couple weeks. And the only thing I'm using from the Hobie kit is the sail and a couple blocks. I'm not using the snuffer either.

So I wish everyone who gets the kit luck with it because the modifications I made are not something most people can build into their islands. Tomorrow I plan on going out and sailing. I think it will work and if it does I'll post pictures and maybe video if possible.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:06 am 
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Tony:
You don't have to do any of the stuff we are talking about, I'm sure you can use the kit just as advertised. I only did mine differently (not a Hobie spinnaker kit) because I got into trouble a few times myself with tangled spinnaker and stay lines (Apparently the owners of those 60 footers don't like it when you hit their boats). Your an expert sailor, I'm sure you will come up with something workable that works for yourself once you get your hands on one.

I was only trying to help Jim with ideas and stuff that I know works well and is reliable (via hard knocks).

FE


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:34 pm 
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The modifications worked well today on the water and there were zero problems with tangles. The pvc tube shielding the halyard seemed to work very well. A 7' piece was hung from the front halyard. Rear Halyard was up and over the mainsail so there wasn't even a chance to tangle back there.

So the day was a lot of fun. Loved flying the spinnaker. It's a real nice sail. Deploying the spinnaker as a roller furling system vs the snuffer has a few minuses. The roller furler leaves the spinnaker hanging out there when you're tacking or not using it. Which adds a bit of drag to the performance. I may rethink the snuffer.

But it's pretty good in the configuration I have for now. It probably doesn't need to be this complicated so there will be more tweaks in the future. Only problem I had which really wasn't a problem was the pvc tube that was used in the roller separated. But furling was still quite functional and there were no problems.

While flying the spinnaker, I deployed the main, furled the main, tried different combinations and furled quickly with no problems whatsoever. Also liked the bowsprit. Got to about 8mph and was riding nice and high at the bow.
Video link:
https://youtu.be/t_fOrsLkgMc


Last edited by CaptnChaos on Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:38 am 
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I was out yesterday with my boat and came up with some stark 'back to reality' conclusions.

A few yrs ago when I was first messing around with my TI adding the jibs, spinnakers, etc, it was all fun experimenting with all that stuff. However adding all the extra sails and gadgets also added to the setup and rigging time.

I was out yesterday in around 12 mph winds, and in our area (Sarasota bay), this equates to 2 ft washing machine chop at all times (very uncomfortable for me, and getting totally drenched all the time gets old fast). My conclusion is I only intend to go out in the future if the wind is below 8 mph. It's just flat not fun for me in anything greater.

On purpose I left my motors tilted up and sailed quite a bit of the day the old fashion way using combinations of main, jib, and spinnaker depending on upwind or downwind (man vs sea and all that stuff using my mad skills (lol)).

In addition I removed my planing hull mod from the boat (I designed it to be removable) just for the heck of it.

When in plain old sailing mode my 33sq ft wing jib works similar to a regular jib allowing you to point higher into the wind, and giving you an extra couple mph forward speed on most points of sail in lower winds (under 10 mph). In winds around 12 mph and above the boat has similar performance whether you use just the jib or just the mainsail, so many times I just furl the mainsail in completely and just use the wing jib only (way easier and simpler to control the boat when coming into busy harbors).

On a downwind I kept the wing jib in neutral, and sailed with both the main and the spinnaker on some downwind runs, to be frank it was kind of boring ( I suspect I have been spoiled). The winds were around 10mph and with both the spinnaker and main out (in a batwing fashion) I was able to go around 6-7 mph downwind.

On upwinds I found I had to tack quite a bit (something I'm not very used to doing), with the jib I was able to get to around 30 deg off the wind and no higher, my forward speed in 10-12mph winds was around 4-5 mph. With the jib in neutral (just following the wind like a weathervane, not providing any power) I was able to sail upwind on just the main, around 40 deg off the wind at around 4 mph.
Using just the main in 10-12 mph winds I was able to get to around 5-6 mph on beam reach, with the jib around 6-7 mph.

During all this time I was very uncomfortable fighting the normal 2 ft washing machine chop in Sarasota bay and getting drenched quite often. I peddled and sailed around 10 miles around the bay (mostly to get my exercise in), I went out big pass and off shore only for a few minutes, but as normal, the breakers just offshore are never any fun (for me anyway, I have a really bad back).

I haven't used this configuration in around 3 yrs ( I retired the spinnaker 3 yrs ago, and it's had been just hanging in the garage since adding the wing jib), and just wanted to remind myself what it's like.

My normal setup time is around 15 minutes normally (over the last 3 yrs), when I put the spinnaker back on and all the extra lines and gadgets that time goes up to around over 30 minutes setup time getting all the furlers set, and all the control lines connected.

The spinnaker all furled up on the bow does seem to create a bit of additional drag on the boat. It's not that big a deal to lay the spinnaker down on the tramp, but I found when I do that I never bother to put it back up once I'm out on the water (too much bother for as little as I downwind sail). The fact of the matter is if I put the main (with a barbor hauler), and the jib in a batwing configuration my downwind performance is not all that bad. Besides just because of the geometry of the area and the prevailing winds, I very seldom find myself on a long downwind. And when the winds are very low (like under 7 mph) sailing downwind on just the sails is like watching grass grow (3mph is normal), I'm just too impatient and get really bored going 3 mph, ( maybe I'm just not suited to be a sailing purist)....

Besides, the area we live in is huge, and the distance from where we launch to the closest beach (where we like to hang out) is around 5 miles. And the place we like to go the most (FT Desoto/Egmont Key) is a good 20 miles from launch (via water). That's 6.5 hrs to get there and another 6.5 hrs to get back at 3 mph average speed.

When we are down at our Key West place it's even worse, there are only a couple places to launch there, and it's a good 5 miles to any place we like to hang out (we like to dive and snorkel (our favorite things to do (we don't fish), and our main reason for owning a boat in the first place)). Besides we know the waters down there pretty well, and strongly advise against taking a stock TI out down there without lots of local knowledge and real (not imagined) awareness of the stock TI's real capabilities, It's just too easy to get blown out to sea and not be able to get back to the tiny island (it's happened to us several times (just flat dangerous, no other way to describe it)).

In conclusion: I'm again going to hang the spinnaker sail up in the garage and retire it, their is nothing wrong with it and it works well, it's just I don't prefer to do that kind of sailing (what I call the old fashion ways (man vs sea and all that rot), and it's just too much time effort and hassle to setup every time I go out.
I going to stick with the twin outboard engines, the benefits far out weigh the downsides. I currently get between 80 and 100 mph with the engines, I only ever run them on very low throttle (just above idle) so they are very quiet (we can easily talk over the noise). If in a pinch I can just as easily run off just one engine, however the rpm needs to be higher (much louder) in order to maintain my normal 8-10 mph cruise speed. and their doesn't seem to be too big a hit on fuel economy running two engines at lower rpm (and much quieter), vs a single engine at higher rpm (determined after recording my average fuel usage vs miles traveled against average cruise speeds, which works out to a pretty consistent 80-100 mpg). Of course that assumes I'm power sailing using the sails as efficiently as possible and peddling 100% of the time, and be very stringent about how much engine power I actually use..... of course the fuel economy can go out the window very easily (under 30 mph if I don't use the sails and use the engines as the primary and only powersource (which I try very hard not to ever do). Obviously if I'm in dire straits and have to get back to shore quickly because of a broken rudder, or the weather has picked up and I'm in grave danger, I always have the option to open the engines up and beeline back to shore (the boat tops out at around 15 mph if the need were ever to arise, what I call get out of dodge mode (never had to do that yet (knock on wood)).

When I was out Saturday in 12-14 mph winds (at the time) the aluminum mast of my wing jib sail snapped in half (metal fatigue), with 3 very hard years on that prototype sail, it needs some TLC, but I plan to repair the mast and the wing sail and continue to use it every time I go out. Of course I have the option to abandon it and not use anything at all, just sail the stock TI. but there is no way I want to go back to that ever.... I much prefer cruising 8-10 mph vs 3 mph in the low winds I ever go out in anymore ( I simply have no plans to ever go out in winds over 7 mph again, it's just too hard on me, besides those are the typical conditions around here 10 months out of the year). Another really big deal to me is it makes no sense to me to have to tack all the time, and only be able to sail 45 degrees off the wind, I kind of like powersailing 15 degrees off the wind at decent speeds (average 8-10 mph)
That's my plan and I'm sticking with it. I know it isn't anyone elses cup of tea.....
FE


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