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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:15 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
We never could get any jibs to work well without a mast, the flexy windsurfer main mast makes everything much more difficult. We just used PVC furlers on most everything, they take 15 minutes to make, and cost around $2-$3 bucks. Without the mast on the jib we couldn’t improve pointing ability upwind.
We always ran a fixed backstay, but I think that line is more for protecting the mast holder on downwind with the spinnaker.
On our TI’s with the jib (without the spinnaker out) on upwind, the fixed rear stay line goes limp. This is because the main mast is bent back like a windsurfer mast about a foot or two.
Quite a few adventure owners had pretty good luck with the Hobie kayak sail on pvc furlers, used as a jib. We had one on our TI for a bit but it was a tad small.
A few guys had ok success with side stays, but they had a stretchy section in the stay line, allowing the main mast to flex.
I only ran a TI twice back in 2010, ( when it was brand new), got washed out to sea and couldn’t get back in both times, have never sailed since without a jib.
Of course I totally suck as a sailer and couldn’t get our TI to point much higher than 50 degrees off the wind without having to pedal like a madman.
With the jib I could consistantly 30 deg off the wind, with the wing jib I can get 15-20 off the wind upwind.

I used trial and error, tried dozens of designs, then settled on what works.

The way I sail is really dangerous. Say in a 12-15mph winds I point the TI directly into the wind, open the mainsail all the way and pull it as tight as I can, same with the jib.
I then start peddling like mad to get some forward motion going. I then slowly turn offwind till the sails catch, as the boat speeds up you can back off on the pedaling to an easy maintainable pace. I then adjust the jib a little to loosen it up. I can maintain 4-5mph upwind as long as I keep pedaling lightly and maintain tight rudder control. I think they call this pinching. If the boat goes sideways you flip, ( that’s why it’s so dangerous). I found if I stop pedaling I lose rudder control, and the boat is always wanting to round into the wind and stop.
The boat is highly un balanced, but hey it works, (lol). I’m pretty sure these are the only small boats in the world you can do this with, (because of the mirage drives).
This is what a lot of the big intercoastal cruiser boats do when powersailing, ( the technique was taught to me by a big rig captain). Just follow a big 60 footer with their giant genoas up the intercoastal, and do what he does.
Obviously if you have outboards, Using our dual outboards gets us up to 10-12 mph upwind, with one outboard we get around 8mph, ( but nobody wants to ever do that kind of stuff, (sailing purists lol). But man o man the boat is a totally exhausting handful at those speeds, just sayin).
On a beam reach the jib gets you maybe 1-2mph faster, but also much more side force, meaning you have to furl the main earlier. We try to avoid sailing a beam reach.
Also keep in mind the intercoastal points north/south, very narrow, and the wind is usually from the south, and most of the year under 5-7mph. Our boat was rigged for that mostly.
Hey we were just out there havin fun, most every weekend year round, don’t really care what anyone does with their boat.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:42 am 
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ok thx... just what I want, better upwind pointing (first goal), second goal would be a bit more speed.

Good to know the backstay is loose with the jib.....wanted to test but apperently not needed.
Basically it means: add a pole/pipe to the jib (guess I will add fiberglass tent poles..... thin and stiff)

Side stays: same idea ... add some strech to make it work (sail/mast needs some flex to work).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am 
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Ok some pics..... jib (used hobie teddy jib):
Used an alu rod i had liying around for the forestay (as a test).
Plan is to extend the rod (and use carbon) from the furler to the mast topper, this way the jib forestay will basically be a solid pole all the way (and will work even with not much tension, so less depending on the flex from the mast).

Thx fusioneng......you are correct, you need a pole to get a jib to really work on an island, otherwise it is just a "bag".

Jib controls blocks (used cat jib blocks) very easy and mounted them in front of the aka's (much better...this sail has a pretty short base).
Easy to control from seat and tramps.

Mast topper: hobie one and now just a test with a few ropes and harken micro block. Plan is to move the block into the mast topper, 10 cm of rope and then the furler top part (directly attached to the pole, inside the sail).
And then I can still use the topper for the spinnaker.
Just need to figure out an easy on-the-water setup.....

First test: a lot faster (low winds up to 3 bft) and better pointing. Higher wind speeds .... guess will not need it.
Will update when fine-tuned (still some things I do not like, furling still not smooth).

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:01 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Jib sizing looks just about right. Keep in mind in higher winds you can run the jib partially furled and still get great pointing upwind, ( the whole reason for the jib in the first place is to point higher upwind). It’s a trimiran, all tri’s suck at pointing upwind. With the jib, (with a mast), you should be able to go 30 deg off the wind upwind.
The main mast on the AI is correctly placed, and the rudder is better sized for the boat vs TI, my opinion is you may have a better sailing machine than my TI’s were, (single handed). The advantage of the TI’s is with two on board, you can’t detect much difference sailingwise with the second person on board, however 3-4 people, it’s a dog to sail, (one reason for adding the outboard, It was our family boat remember, lol).
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:27 am 
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jib is 25 sqft, but the shape does it.......

And side stays with bungies (a triangle to the mast topper, one on each side) to allow the mast to flex to a certain amount (the main sail does not work well without flex from the mast).
Furling.... will work in higher winds I guess, just need it to work better (not smooth at the moment).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Interesting placement for your jib halyard line, (I hadn’t thought of doing that). On mine I went straight to the harkin cleat directly, wrapped the halyard line around the aka cross brace, then into the harkin cleat, (eliminating the pulley). Never had any tangles.
From the looks of things, adding the Hobie spinnaker with the standard configuration should be easy, ( so you can run both jib and spinnaker, ( like me). I use the jib most of the time, ( actually only ever ran the boat without a jib the first two times out back in 2010). I usually furl the jib to run the spinnaker, (seldom would you ever have both out at the same time).
The only difference was I always ran my spinnakers on a mast also, ( but that was more to do with me totally sucking at designing snuffer bags).
I’m pretty impressed with Hobies spinnaker sail design, (I think it was designed by the guys at North Sails. Hobies mast topper looks like it still needs work, but it’s coming along nicely as everyone get’s their hands on them, they will figure out what works. The key to everything on these boats is a good mast topper design.
FE

Edit: breakdown on sail usage for us was 90% jib and 10% spinnaker


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:04 pm 
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I tested different positions for the the jib halyard lines, but this position and rope setup allows me to pull the jib down better and tighten the leech.
It makes the jib more effective by controling the way the wind leaves the jib (no fluttering).
Other postions (more back) the jib leech kept fluttering.

Yours is a wing like sail, so i don't think you have that problem (the wing is more a stiff shape, smart choice for an island, makes it work independent from the main mast).

The jib lines are 2:1 on each side, can control it with 2 fingers.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:46 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Yea that’s not including the 30 or so sail designs that didn’t work out so hot, took a lot of years to get it all right, but it was an absolute blast figuring it all out.
Never did make the 8” thick furlable wing main sail that I designed in 2014. I designed a jointed wing main last year, but am still waiting feedback from some wing experts like Tom Speer, on how to best proceed.
I have the new hull designed. Which will still revolve around the TI platform. The new hull will be a drop in slipper, where the TI kayak drops into the slipper easily. To use the kayak alone just lift the hull out, and leave the AMA’s and sailing rigging back at the campsite, ( the TI kayak by itself is by leaps and bounds faster and better than any kayak we have ever owned).
The new hull will be a foam glass planing hull design about 23 ft long, shooting for 18-20lbs weight, ( last hull mod weighed 9 lbs), (most of the extral length will be forward of the mast, ( my last hull design had a serious pitchpole and diving problem). The stern will be squared off around 28” wide. Still need to work out a stronger rudder design. The boat with AMA’s out will be the same 12-13 ft wide, (same as current, which is just about right for the craft). Hobies AMA design itself ended up being way better than anticipated, ( good job Hobie). The last design had around 700-750 lb load capacity, this one will be 900 plus lbs weight capacity. The AKA bars will be lengthened again, but this time I will strengthen the AKA bars considerably.
Starting out I will still be using the hybrid Honda’s, ( but I won’t be souping any extreme Honda’s anymore, ( not my goal). Once I get the wing sail efficiency up to 60% of my power requirements with my new wing designs, ( currently only around 35% to 40%) I should be able to convert to solar,battery, electric propulsion, (all the details on the electronics have already been worked out). Last design had upwind cruise speed around 10mph in very light winds, and got around 80mpg. Next solar/electric design, ( once all the wing designs are worked out), will cruise 12mph upwind, ( in around 5mph winds) with a completely unlimited range, ( if the sun is shining it goes), with ample battery backup of course. Since we live in Florida sunshine is 80% to 90% of the time down here, and we don’t go out at all in winds over 7mph, ( personal preference). Obviously the boat will handle much more than that, ( it will be fully hardened for offshore use), but that’s just in case we get caught out there, ( which happens a lot).
Of course it will still be a pedal boat, the last design with 2 strong peddlers with the wing, (no motors) we could peddle a mile or two at around 7mph, but got pooped out, ( I’m not an athlete by any stretch of the imagination). The new design I’m shooting for 8-9 mph upwind in very low winds for around 5-10 miles, (with no motors at all) utilizing my wing tech. Obviously it will still be a full blown very efficient sailboat on all other points of sail.
The old design was 25% human power, around 30% to 35% wing sail power, with the rest from supplemental propulsion. The next design will be 25% human power, 50% to 60% wing power with the rest from supplimental power. Obviously we all know the turbo fins give up the ghost at around 8-9mph, but the flow-90 eclipse fins provide useful propulsion up to 12mph, ( that’s why my cruise speed will be 12mph). With 7-8mph natural headwind, ( upwind close reach, around 20 deg off the wind) plus my 12mph forward speed makes the wind on my face 20mph while underway. The 150 sq ft wing will have plenty horsepower. The new wing designs will also work much better on all the other points of sail as well.
Everything is designed, I think it will be the best solar/tripower rig out there, lol everbody else I’ve seen is doing human/solar electrics that do 4mph, ( a total joke in my mind, and a huge wasted effort).
My back is all better now, I can’t wait to get back at it, ( this kind of stuff is fun for me).
But to be perfectly honest, I love designing the stuff, workin all the details out, that part is all done now. However being fully retired now on just social security. I will never get the money together to even buy just the boat itself. Making all the rest is very simple, the hull mod is around $400 in materials, the new main wing costs will be around $500 to build, I still have my old Honda’s, but the two 403 Torqeedo drives, batteries, and solar panels are still very expensive, ( way more than I have). The rest of everything is only a few hundred bucks in materials, all easily built in my garage shop.
To be honest to myself, I won’t be doing anymore, it was a blast designing everything, but that’s as far as it’s gonna go.
Hopefully someone else will now take the ball and run with it. It’s been a blast.
FE


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:15 am 
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I am relatively new to the Island BUT your posts and idea's saved me days off work and money.

So THANK YOU and keep putting in idea's.
- Jib I got done pretty fast after using your idea's
- Spinnaker ... I now know how to do it (thx again)
- Hobie should look at YOUR mast topper (just better). Hobie's topper: lose fit on top, get's of to easy (needs a fixation), not high enough and not wide enough.

Still VERY interested in you PLANING hull design (i lack a bit off time, money is not really an issue and I got most of the tools and I am pretty handy).
- Paning is the next project for me.....
- Will your shape fit to an adventure ?
- Can you share the design (CAD file), once digitized it can be easily produced (maybe 3d scan it....).

Keep putting in idea's, feedback and/or advice .....


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Good to hear your back is better FE.
Love what you guys are doing with these mods and thank you for sharing your ideas here. Not that I will ever get round to doing any of them...Happy camper with a bog standard 2017. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:47 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:20 pm
Posts: 112
Location: Pula - Sardinia
Prettig could u tell me more about the increase in performances. did u measure it?
did u notice also an increase iwhen sailing downwind or only upwind?

another question. i understand you found a job of a hobie teddy but what do u think about a bigger jib? since we stated that these front sails must be used in light winds I think they could be bigger


Last edited by Sardinian Islander on Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:53 am 
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No not yet measured, but easy to feel it was faster (also compared to other boats I know) on close/beam/broad reach. Downwind not yet tested.
Adding 2,2 m2 real usable sail (40% more)...... does help :D

Upwind much better (at least 10 degrees, still playing with setup), speed upwind.... not much more (mainsail is not very effective pointing).
Boat is not overpowered and I do not need the rudder (can steer with the jib if needed), so pretty neutral.

All in light winds up to 3 bft and in seat, not yet tested in higher winds (new setup, so I take small steps, before I break something).

Next time I will try and NOT forget my phone (and switch it on and measure) ......


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:01 am 
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First a question:
- anyone tried the jib-downhaul on the OTHER side of the mast ? (back side of the mast, back to the base)
- Using hobie topper: equal pressure on both sides of the topper (during sailing)
- Furling main sail will be easier (lines are more away from the mast)

Small update:
- up to 3 bft, nice
- above 3 bft.... you start to use the rudder (slows it down), so larger main sail needed to keep it balanced (tandem sail !)
- Ordered the carbon tubes (euro 100,-) and dyneema rope for inside the tube (2 meter pieces, 2 different sizes, glue them and get one pipe: 8mm outside and 4mm inside). Dyneema will go inside the tube. The tube with dyneema will replace the steel cable inside the jib.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:44 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
For a while I had both the jib and spinnaker halyards running to the back of the boat, ( big loops). Along with the fixed stay line, all 3 running inside a 3/8” dia pvc tube, ( water pipe) about 10 ft long, the pipe was attached to the back of the mast topper via string. It worked, but I didn’t like those really long ropes, (tangles). Nothing was ever removed from the boat, so setup time wasn’t too bad.
I think Stringy put velcro on his mast topper to hold it on.
FE


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:52 am 
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Short video, pointing upwind with the Jib (max 2 bft wind), no drive in the water.
Wind was not that steady, i can get a bit better angle with a more steady and a bit stronger wind.
The jib is an old used Hobie teddy one and is not the best anymore (a bit sloppy), will buy a new one: so even more angle.

The Jib stay is now a carbon tube (8mm, with 4mm walls) and a dyneema rope.
The top of the furler with the tensioner: if you tension it it will pull the jib over the tube and automatically tension it.

https://youtu.be/wV-TgHUz8Bk

Tested it now up to 5-6 bft winds: up to 3 full jib, gusting above 3 furl (2x), at 5-6 bft I had 25% jib (not much more speed but great for tacking, just put it in the middle with a bit of loose lines... kind off auto-tacking).
Keeps up nicely and not much bending from the carbon tube. Furling is fast and easy for main and jib (hobie topper). On the water setup is easy as well (2 minutes and main and jib are down).

Down wind: keep it at an angle a bit and both on one side (easier due to the shape of this jib).

If you do not furl the jib on time: more rudder, slowing it down and pushing the nose into the water..... way more spray on leeward side, again slowing it down.
Pretty easy to see when to furl it.


In short: better pointing (even in stronger winds), more speed (low winds)..... just what I wanted.


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