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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:20 pm
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Location: London UK
have a search through my posts and you will find the pics of the stainless steel mount on the gear tracks. there is some video on my youtube chanel as well.

TC

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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:52 pm
Posts: 287
Location: North carolina
I think you were the one who posted this sketch of motor mount in the internet. Is this mount now what you're using? I searched your posts but failed to find the motor mount. Anyways, I'm done installing the geartrack and might start with a 2x4 bolted down to this gearttack I just finish installing today. Ill start of with my watersnake TM then when I know I'll be fishing offshore I'll proceed with a more solid design strong enough to hold my long shaft hONDA 2.3 outboard. Chopcat, can you please share me the link. Thank you


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:07 pm 
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Posts: 287
Location: North carolina
Thanks Chopcat, I found the link. And also saw your tent trailer. I'm impressed! I want one of that :)


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3005
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Walt:
I get about the same fuel economy, range, and speed as you with 1 motor running at 1/2 throttle with no sails up (and the second backup motor up). My fuel economy goes up quite a bit if I pedal and sail at the same time, sometimes double/triple depending an the actual wind and conditions. The only thing the second motor gets me is a little higher cruising speed with the throttles a little lower so the fuel economy remains fairly close to the same as with the single engine but I cruise and sail a couple mph faster at lower throttle settings using about the same amount of total fuel. Hey it works and allows me to motor/pedal/sail around 8-10 mph even in the typical light winds we have around here, which is normally what I do. And I like having the knowledge that if coming into dire straits with a storm coming on me and I'm still 5-10 miles from launch, I know I can get out of dodge quickly, open up the throttles to WOT and powersail 13-15 mph, but boy does it use the gas, at wot I go thru 1 gallon of gas in one hour, thats only 15 mpg. Needless to say I don't do that very often, but it's nice to know I have the capability if I need it (we get a lot of sudden lightning storms with high winds in the summer here).
I think your setup is awesome
Good luck
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Colorado
Another follow up..

First, I just noticed the warning sign on the TI (below). I get so used to not looking at these since they often are just silly (I just bought an umbrella and it has SIX warning tags on it).

Image

Note that it says 400 watt max motor. Hp and watts are both units for power and the conversion is 745.7 watts per hp. So the TI warning says a max hp of .54 hp.. The Honda is 2.3 hp and the Suzuki is 2.5 hp.. Woops... looks like you are taking some of the risk yourself in doing this.

I used the 2.5 hp outboard on a big lake (Havasu) recently and it worked great.. I posted this video earlier but here it is again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWkM0BL ... load_owner

On this trip, I probably motored just over 10 miles up the Colorado river and had a strong head wind most of the way so used more than the single internal tank of gas so had to refill the tank on the water. The picture below shows the first tank I had used (the one farther back with the push button) and it sort of worked but the sheet kept getting caught on the gas nozzle which sticks out somewhat. It also was a little hard to not spill gas.

The picture below shows two options that I did NOT like and am not using but have sort of tried..

Image

The tank with the bulb and hose to fill the outboard tank in the picture above seemed like a good idea and it took about 50 pumps to fill the quart outboard tank. The problem with this (and it might seem obvious.. but it wasn’t to me..) is that once that pump bulb and hose is full of gas such as it would be just after using it, it makes a great siphon. If the end of the hose is not sealed very well and the hose is layed down low, it will drain the tank. Also, if pressure builds up in tank, it will also force the gas out the hose. This just seemed like too much chance to screw up sometime even if you try and seal the end of the hose and end up with bunch of gas in the water.

What I have ended up with is just a one gallon tank that you have to install the nozzle to use and a separate 20 oz tank. I will just use the 20 oz tank first (easy - not likely to spill) and this will generally be all I need given the tank in the outboard has a range of about 9 miles and the 20 oz tank adds another 5.5 miles. If I ever need the one gallon tank, I would just fill both the outboard and the 20 oz at the same time. With the 1 gallon tank, I would get just over a 50 mile range!

The last two pictures show the 20 oz plus the one gallon tank setup.. The clip on the outboard mount connects to the outboard - safety leash.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:14 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3005
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Walt:
Maybe they are describing propulsive power in watts (not input power), (probably not lol). According to the Torqeedo website their typical 1 hp equivalent electric motor puts out around 180 watts of propulsive power (those are the specs for the Torqueedo 403 (which is the same exact motor as the evolve)). The evolve/torqeedo 403 just happens to have 400 watts of input power (an absolutely amazing coincidence, who could have known), obviously they only want you to put their evolve motor on their boats and nothing else (that's just good business on their part, they only want people to put the motor they sell exclusively on their boats " to keep you safe").

I figure I'm ok, if you refer to the technical specs on the Torqeedo web site (a Torqeedo 403 is equivalent to a 1 hp gas outboard) the 403/Evolve has a propulsive power is 180 watts. My honda 2.3hp gas puts out according to Torqeedos formula 414 watts of propulsive power (180 x 2.3 = 414). In my case I have a second Honda ( I will start calling that a backup motor). Hey I'm good to go....... I have no plans to get rid of what I have, it's about as awesome as it gets.....

Next time we have 4 people on our TI, the extra two people will now be called our backup pilots, just in case we twist an ankle or something and can no longer pedal.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:30 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2893
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Don't forget that the 600# capacity is for the >main hull only< (based on the logic with the old A! which had the same listed capacity as the Adventure single hull kayak)

My tests show each TI ama can support an additionasl 330# when just submerged level with the water

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:48 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Tony:
Makes perfect sense to me, I assume they are only allowed one of those CE rating/capacity stickers on a craft. The AMA's and sails can be removed and the boat used without the sails and AMA's, so I assume by law, that's what the sticker has to state (the capacity of the minimum configuration (kayak only)).
Hopefully If I ever get caught with 3 or 4 people on my fully rigged TI and end up doing hard time, people will send me cookies from time to time......

(the boat easily carries 4 adults with the tramp option (we do it all the time, and it's even shown in Hobies own documentation)

again that's my story and I'm sticking with it.


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:25 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Jaco, Costa Rica
Here's my motor mount, with treated 2X6 mounted with aluminum brackets (home made), with aluminum back plates inside the hull. The removable motor mounts are okay, but let's face it, once you've become accustomed to the motor power, your not ever going to go out without it. So permanent is an option and far more options for placement.
I like the fact that I've got all that cargo area by placing the mount just forward of the rear port, but the issue is the water being kicked up onto the rudder lines and entering the hull, be it very slowly. I'm going to try and keep that amount of water to a further minimum by using silicone on those rudder lines.

Image

Image

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Tandem Island- 2013
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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:25 pm
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Location: Jaco, Costa Rica
The silicone did the trick, hardly any water in the hull today.

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Tandem Island- 2013
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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:23 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Colorado
CR Yaker, what is the silicone fix for the water coming in the rear control lines? Just inject some silicone into the holes and on the cables? When I did that over 20 mile trip in the video I posted earlier, I had maybe 1 to 1.5 quart of water in the boat after the trip and it was windy most of the time.. which wasn’t all that bad but I wouldn’t mind reducing that.

Torqeedo http://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/out ... 42-00.html makes the claim that their 1003 works just like a 3 hp gas outboard but it only uses 1000 watts input power (about 1.35 hp).

I think the TI is a good platform to verify this claim as the peak speed I saw with the 2.5 gas outboard was about 7 knots (at over 4000 ft el - I need to retake this closer to sea level). I’m not sure exactly what the peak sailing speeds of a TI are but I don’t think its that hard to get them up over 10 knots so the speed you get with the outboard is not "up against the wall" like you get with a typical displacement hull sailboat. I.e., changes in delivered hp in this range do result in measurable changes in boat speed - and I think make the TI a really good way to compare.

On another sailboat forum, one of the posters has a TI and the Torqeedo 1003 and was going to mount it. I will be curious to see his full speed results because if Torqeedo claims are correct, we should see about the same peak speed even though Torqueedo is just a little over one half the hp (whatever the 2.5 hp means on the gas outboard??). The Torqeedo claims always seemed maybe a little too much coming from the marketing dept but maybe somehow they are true??


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:29 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Just a minor correction... A TI will not maintain a steady 10 knots. Speeds in that region might be reached with wave action (or running tides LOL) but only momentarily. Hull speed as a displacement hull is about 5.8 knots (*see below) and while world class racing kayaks can reach up to double this number, realistically Islands are not remotely comparable.

Of course, I would be delighted to be proved incorrect! I suspect that if conditions were completely ideal (ie those used for windsurfer record attempts)

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_speed

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:46 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
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Location: Colorado
Its going way down wind in a good breeze where I have gone the fastest. Im not sure of the exact number but in say 15 to 25 mph winds, I think you spend a lot of time at least over 8 knots. The point being that at around 7 knots, you can still increase your speed if you add more power. On a displacement mono hull, you will also increase your speed after you reach the "theoretical hull speed" but the increase is so small that it makes it hard to determine that an increase in delivered power did anything.

FYI, if you watch the video I just posted a few back, I did a long down wind run (outboard out of the water) and it sure looks to me like that TI hull is planing. I forgot the GPS this trip so dont know how fast I was going. Its a fairly flat surface on the bottom.. I dont think a Cat like a Hobie 14 or 16 will plane. but it sure looks like the TI does. Not that it matters much as Im sure the Hobie 14 that I was sailing just before I got the AI five years ago would leave both the AI and the TI in the dust (if there were dust)


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:57 pm
Posts: 234
Location: Delaware
walt wrote:
On another sailboat forum, one of the posters has a TI and the Torqeedo 1003 and was going to mount it. I will be curious to see his full speed results because if Torqeedo claims are correct, we should see about the same peak speed even though Torqueedo is just a little over one half the hp (whatever the 2.5 hp means on the gas outboard??). The Torqeedo claims always seemed maybe a little too much coming from the marketing dept but maybe somehow they are true??


I have a Torqeedo 1003 on my TI. I forget what speed I got when testing, but in real world use I rarely see 7 MPH. Here are some static thrust figures: Honda 2.3 - 66, Torqeedo T1003 - 68, Suzuki 2.5 - 83. No idea how this translates into top speed. I also purposely made my mount with a tilt to bring the bottom of the motor higher out of the water when not in use, this surely slows me down some but not idea how much.

The T1003 has a two blade prop and is rated to do 5 kts top speed @ 1200 RPMs. The T503 has a three blade prop and is rated to do 4 kts top speed @ 700 RPMs. (This rating has been changed, it used to say 5 kts, the same as the T1003). Anyway, if you put the 3 bladed T503 prop on the T1003 which spins much faster it should give a considerably higher speed, right? At my dealer's recommendation, that is what I did. No noticeable difference in speed. Maybe it would be faster on lighter boat or one that didn't revolt to speeds much above 7 MPH like the TI seems to do. I think it might of given me more range by using lower throttle settings at lower speeds but didn't test that. The T1003 just barely fits into my from hatch, with the 3 bladed prop it would not as I have to lay it prop down, so I chose to stick with the 2 bladed prop.

Bottom line, lack of gasoline and noise are the high points of the Torqeedo but expense, range and probably reliability are the low points. If not for the fact that motorized watercraft are prohibited at my main launch point (thus why I have to hide it under the front hatch), I would probably sell the Torqeedo and get a gas motor.


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:20 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
walt:
I've done a lot of research into that kind of stuff, I've been trying to put together an electric boat to complete the 300 mile Everglades challenge race in their Class 6 experimental electric class (been working on it for 5 yrs now,,,,,,still nowhere close). The Travel 1003 is the one I have been looking at for a long time. Actually there was a Windrider 17 entered in the Everglades challenge this year in their experimental electric class 6 (go to http://www.watertribe.org to read more about the 300 mile race from Ft Desoto FL to Key Largo FL every spring).
I've been following the race now for many years trying to prepare my TI to complete the race in class 6 experimental electric class, If you watch this video, three minutes into the video, you can see the Windrider 17 with his torqeedo 1003, he even has a cool solar setup. If you listen carefully he explains a lot in the video how everything works (which is all fascinating to me ( I was literally on the edge of my seat)), I have no idea whatsoever how he did in the race.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e05gGHpUYjg


If you go to the West Marine web site (West Advisor has a good overview of the Torqeedo 1003) ( http://www.westmarine.com/buy/torqeedo- ... --12101838 ). One battery charge will get a TI up to around 6 mph at full throttle and lasts about 30 minutes (will get you 3 miles). That's my dilemma I would need 100 of those $700 dollar batteries to complete the race (thats $70,000 dollars worth of batteries if you do the math ($68,000 with the solar charger option). Even at 6 lbs apiece that comes out to 600 lbs of batteries. Actually 6mph would not cut it for me, it's a nogo for me averaging anything less than 10-12 mph (that would mean twin 1003's and 200 batteries). The Travel 1003 weighs 30 lbs (my Honda 2.3 only weighs 27 lbs) The Travel 1003 has about the same noise output as my Honda according to everything I have read.
Actually 600 lbs is light years better than lead acid batteries which would require 15,000 lbs of batteries to complete the race.
If you are thinking about getting any Torqeedo, read a lot of reviews before making the purchase (I'm just sayin there might be reliability issues with their stuff (based on what I have read, but that's just my opinion based on reading reviews, I have not purchased one myself)

No the speed of the TI is not up against the wall like big displacement hulls, however the horsepower required to get the hull above the theoretical hull speed (8 mph) increases exponentially as your speed increase.

It's all interesting stuff.

Actually I try to document all my research and stuff. Below are some of the calculated performance characteristics of my TI as I try to work everything out (it's mind boggling btw), I doubt much of it makes any sense to anyone. The below chart is one of 8 charts, this chart only covers heading directly into the wind (per the picture) (upwind only, from 5 deg to 20 degrees off the wind). Since this is worst case scenario racing the whole race into head on winds, all my calculations are based on this.
Image


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