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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 7:34 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:52 pm
Posts: 287
Location: North carolina
Tested my mount yesterday and was really happy with the results. Mount performes great. I did not install the sail as wind is below 2 mph I think. Now I can use my boat even with no wind. Perfect for me as I cannot stand pedaling continuously for 10 minutes. Bad lower back issue.

Three things just to keep me busy.
- I think I'll get some improvement if I have what FE molded around his shaft. I need to research how...it may have been documented by FE in some of his response.

- replace my wood with 2x6 and paint just to make it look nice. And also cut my angle bracket to length.

- maybe add splash guard like what CR hacker has as I have about 1 cup of water after 1 hr of running the outboard which I think went in through this bad rudder line tube. My rudder line tube has deformity at starboard side like what others have.

Thanks to all.


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:33 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3014
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I have the same problem with splash, I just stole one of those thin plastic cutting boards (about 1/16 thick polyethylene kind of clear) from my wife's kitchen cut it in half and used silicone to glue it near the motor and to the hull and motor mount, hey it's crude but it works.

We also mostly only go out in only very low winds (typically we only go out if the wind is below 5-7 mph and the water is very flat (which is pretty typical around here 10 months out of the year 90 percent of the time)). So we have a choice when we go out every weekend to either pedal along at 2-3 mph or powersail 8-10 mph and spend a dollar or so in fuel, the choice is ours, take a guess which I select if we are planning to go 20-40 miles that day. Just sayin
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Colorado
I saw Naps umbrella attached to the motor mount. Some more pictures of attaching "stuff" . The light is not exactly legal for motoring at night but helps to be seen and of course you cant sail with all this stuff attached - gets in the way of the sheet.

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Colorado
Update after using this for a while - Rev 3... (or.. more evindence of a serial modifier, maybe I need some sort of 12 step program)

After using what was shown in the previous pictures, I made a change that uses the "moment arm" idea to keep any rotation of the mount from occuring eiher from the outboard thrust or from when the outboard is rotated up out of the water and Im sailing in windy conditions.

This picture shows the mounting plates with the motor mount removed. All the permanent parts have Al backing plates.
Image

Motor mount with the new moment arm brace.
Image

The fork on the end of the moment arm is held captive (cant move up or down) and the rest of the motor mount is just held in with ropes. It takes less than a minute to remove the mount and a little over a minute to install it and its very solid.
Image

The motor mount wieght is 6 pounds.


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Colorado
Ive been sailing the TI recently on the lower Colorado river (below lake mead) where the outboard has been nice to go miles upriver to some destination, then sail. The 2.5 hp outboard has a single one quart tank that is good for around 9 miles if no current which is not enough for a trip I did take and one Im planning. I have found that a good way to prevent any gas spilling is to use the 20 oz red gas containers shown in the pictures and time the refil so that you dont need to worry about the gas spilling out the top.

As an example, the gas tank on the outboard is close to 32 oz and will last close to 1.25 hours. The 20 oz can will last close to 45 minutes. I now carry two of the 20 oz cans so I just keep track of how long I have been motoring and pour the first can it at one hour and the second can in at 1 hour 45 minutes. By watching the time, I just pour the whole can in.. and it doesn't spill over the top.

The full tank in the outboard plus the two 20 oz tanks has a range of about 20 miles @ about 6 knots. If I bring along the one gallon tank (you must stop somewhere to use this to fill the other tanks where you can take extra care to not still the gas) and this gives a total range of 56 miles!!

This mount is easily removed - just held on by the lines shown in the picture. I had the horn cleats for the lines on the top of the brace but the cleats caught the sheet a couple times so I moved the horn cleats to the side - no more catching the sheet rope.

Image

Below - horn cleats moved to the side to they dont catch the sheet
Image

below - one gallon tank new storage spot
Image


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:52 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:30 am
Posts: 235
Location: Delnor Wiggins, Fl Peters Twp PA
I like the idea of the 20 oz bottles. I have yet to use our motor so this is very helpful to me. I've re-purposed a 1.75 gal rotopax container from a bike but I'm not quite sure where it'll be stored on the TI.


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:33 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:25 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Jaco, Costa Rica
On the TI, I just store the 1 gallon plastic gas can bungeed to the cross brace for the motor mount (motor mount sits just in front of the furthest rear port hole). I sit in the back seat always, solo or tandem. Makes it easy to fill the tank as all I have to do is turn around on my knees on the Atwood seat and fill the tank, often do it with the motor still running.
See photos on page two.

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Tandem Island- 2013
2 - Sports - 2014


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:03 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Colorado
Yep.. lots of good ways to do this and plenty of ideas. One more negative about the 20 oz tanks is their cost (about $20 each)

The one thing about the gas container in the back is if its got some sort of "snout", the sheet ropes may get caught on it.. mostly just annoying but my first tank did this. The one gallon tank I showed in the last picture had no problem with catching the sheets. Filling on the water works from the container, you just have to be super careful not to spill any gas. The 20 oz cans and keeping track of how long the outboard has been running is one good way to handle this. I think its the "over filling" resulting in some gas spill that is the hardest to avoid (and should absolutely be avoided) and maybe you could find a gas container that automatically stops the gas flow when the level gets up to the filler tube. I think the red tank shown in my last picture post might do that.. but Im not sure. I know some tanks do not do this and will overflow. I usually ONLY take the two 20 oz tanks with me (up to 20 mile range). Also, the small red plastic tank in my picture is the new style completely sealed type (no vent at all). Storing a vented tank inside the hull would obviously be a bad idea..

Anyhow... I just threw out one way to do this..


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3014
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Can I make a suggestion regarding your sail control line. I have had difficulty in the past when my sail control line was loose it would wrap around anything and everything back there including the motors. To solve the potential problem I installed two goal posts to my motor mount that keeps the sail control line from getting tangled into things it shouldn't.
Just an idea
FE
Edit: I made the goal posts from 3/8 dia pvc waterpipe. Everything I do always has double/triple duty, the 3/8 rods also double as hiking sticks (with a simple paracord loop on one end, and also as a mount for my white nightime running light just in case I get caught out after dark (it happens when your having too much fun and get a little too far from launch).


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Colorado
Update on the gas outboard.. We recently did an outing involving a fair amount of motoring - and this particular outing is part of the reason I put the outboard on. You start in Lake Havasu on a day with N or NW winds forecast and motor up the Colorado river into Topock Gorge. River currents are fairly mild, maybe 2 to 3 mph normally. We motored about 15 miles with about 10 of that into both wind and current. We then did a really fine downwind sail back through the Gorge - wind and current in the same direction. The 15 mile down wind sail was with the motor in the up position in some fairly strong wind / waves at times. This is when you are glad to have a robust mount. The first set of pictures are of this trip - you can see the outboard in a couple of the pictures viewtopic.php?f=70&t=57128

Anyhow, 15 miles with a lot of that into the wind and current required filling that one quart tank on the outboard multiple times and after using those 20 oz red tanks.. think they somewhat SUCK for this application. You still need a funnel to not spill any gas.

What I think is the best way to fill the tanks now is with a one gallon plastic tank with the "spill proof" nozzle like this http://www.homedepot.com/p/Scepter-Amer ... /204342757 The one gallon plus the tank in the outboard still have a huge range of over 40 miles and all you have to do is fill the tank every hour.

With this "spill proof" nozzle, you stick the end of the nozzle into the tank and press down, gas comes out. When the gas gets up to some level, it stops flowing - ie, spill proof. You slowly lift the nozzle out of the outboard tank to let the last drips out.

However.. the one I have still fills the tank too high so I modified it a little so that the gas doesn't get as close to the top. Mod is just a little cutout of the black plunger hanger.

I put water in the gas tank to test, with the modified plunger the picture below shows how high the gas gets to before the auto shutoff.

Image

Below - on the right before mod, on the left after mod so that the gas level is lower when the shut off occurs.
Image

The other thing about long motoring (in this case nearly 3 hours), the wake from the outboard shaft is constantly washing up onto the rear round hatch and mine is not completely water tight so I get a constant leak into the hull. I probably had several gallons of water in the main hull when we turned around. So I added a Lexan water deflector like others (CR Yacker - see a page or two back) have done in this thread. I think I will still end up with some water in the hull but this hopefully will cut it down.

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:41 am
Posts: 93
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
I have one of these for my chainsaw - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Husqvarna-Chainsaw-Combi-2-Stroke-5056980-55/dp/B002ZHLYEC which has a great nozzle for the fuel - it fits in the chainsaw filler, you then push down and it releases the fuel and when its full it automatically cuts off. I have no idea how it works but it brilliant and could easily be used to top up your tank with no spillage. PM me if you want any more info...

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(retired) Outback - Hibiscus Red
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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3014
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I have just a regular 1 gallon gas can I picked up at the gas station (I see the same type cans in many gas stations). The spout is inside for storage, when you flip it around the spout has a spring loaded valve that you have to push in to pour. The end has a removable screw on cap that keeps water out.
I keep the can in a home Depot cloth shopping bag strapped over the rear hatch in the bag. The bag protects the gas can from the hot hot florida sun.
I also keep an additional gallon emergency can (same type of can) inside the hull inside an old cooler, it's one of those insulated coolers that holds a 6 pack of beer or pop. The sealed can is in the closed cooler with the lid zippered shut, when I go out I just drop the cooler and my dry bag with tools, flares, lights, and first aid kit into the hull. I have never had to touch that second gallon in sid years now, and very seldom need to access the first gallon, 90% of the time I only end up using at most half a tank from each of the 1 quart tanks on the motors (1 tank gives me about 3-4hrs runtime).
It all works for me anyway.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:50 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Colorado
Haliboo, it sounds like your gas can has the same "spill proof" feature that mine does. I also dont know how the heck it works but it automatically shuts off the gas when it reaches some level. The only place the tank is vented is at the end of the nozzle so the auto cutoff must have something to do with stopping the tank venting. I think this little feature will be key as filling the outboard tank with a nozzle is great (no funnel needed) but if the nozzle doesn't automatically shut off, its very easy to over fill the tank and spill gas. FE.. hmm the bag on the gas can to keep the heat down sounds like a good idea. The one I have with the spill proof nozzle also does not have any venting at all and looks like its about to blow up when it gets very hot.

I dont know how you get such long run times (3 to 4 hours), the outboards must be running closer to the idle side.. The one quart on the Suzuki 2.5 HP (both the Honda and Suzuki are four strokes) goes for about 80 minutes pushing the TI at about 6 knots (no wind or current, sail usually rolled up unless it will help) and that is about where I run it. On the real long motor runs, I just watch the time and fill the tank on the hour so never run out this way.


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:10 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3014
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Walt:
Keep in mind every outboard and trolling motor made is specifically designed to propel a 16ft 3000lb boat ('the standard'), all established in the fifty's before kayaks ever existed. The entire industry has been stuck in time since then, and I can guarantee they have no clue whatsoever what we do with their stuff.
All engine are made to propel a large boat to 5-6mph at wot. The pitch on my Honda stock props is 4.5, you can't buy anything else (mostly because of the stupidity of the industry). If you are able to make your own props, just make a 7 inch pitch prop and the boat can go up to about 15-20 before the engines explode. I only ever run my engines at idle, or at max 1/4 throttle, thats how you get 3-4 hrs runtime, and also with the underwater exhaust they are no louder than a trolling motor. With twin engines at idle my boat goes 6-7 mph, at just below 1/4 throttle it goes 8-9mph. That's without peddling or any sails up. With sails up and peddling the fuel economy doubles.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: TI outboard mount
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Colorado
I always find your posted speeds rather remarkabe as I can never get anywhere near what you post. I assume you make a good effort to make accurate measurements before posting.

Regarding the prop, you likely know that the HP delivered - and what creates the thrust - is RPM times torque. What happens when you put an outboard on some hull is that some hp is required to go a certain speed. As long as you have some prop "slip" (ie, the prop is spinning faster than the water is going by it), you can get that HP by either a lower RPM and higher torque or a higher RPM and lower torque. To get max speed on a hull like this which is generally pushing into a steeper portion of the drag vs hull speed curve, you need to set the torque for that desired speed so that the outboard gets up to its rated RPM (usually 5000 to 6000 rpm). If the torque is too high (ie, too high of pitch), you cant get up to the peak RPM. If the torque is too low (ie, too low of pitch), the outboard will usually rev limit (my Suzuki has a rev limiter, Im not sure about the Honda). I cant find the pitch on my Suzuki but it looks to be about 5. I have not measured RPM at full throttle but I think its close to the 5000 to 6000 range (keep in mind Im just going by hearing and comparing it to my 9.8 hp outboard which I have measured the RPM). I think whatever pitch prop that comes stock on that motor is well matched to the TI. Maybe the designers forgot about the 3000 pound boat rule?

If I were to go with a higher pitch prop on this same outboard, it would increase the torque and if the RPM stayed the same, it would create more HP (HP = torque * RPM). But.. the outboard can only put out 2.5 hp max so what actually happens is that the higher pitch prop results in the outboard running at a lower RPM. Lower RPM is less explosions per sec so if you already had a well matched prop, you may go slower by increasing the pitch. You wont go 15 to 20 mph with a higher pitch prop.

FYI, on my 9.8 hp Nissan outboard (NOT used on the TI but on a larger sailboat), I actually hooked up an oscilloscope to the coil drive signal when I was measuring its RPM and the way the rev limiter works on that outboard is that the electronic ignition circuit measures the RPM and then starts to modify (ie, screw up) the spark timing when its wants to limit RPM. Its a very cheap effective rev limiter so I expect that my Suzuki works the same way - since it is very cheap to implement.


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