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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:09 am 
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 8:06 pm
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Location: Laem Sing, Chanthaburi, Thailand
I have a Suzuki 2.5 HP on my TI which I use when the wind dies. I have been running the outboard with it locked in place and steering with the rudder. Talking to a friend the other day I was told running like I do is a no no, and he has broken his rudder pin while using his outboard. He claims I should be steering with the outboard and that the rudder needs to be raised.

Does anybody have an opinion on this and experience with broken rudder pins while using their outboard.

Thanks,
John


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:11 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
I've just clocked up 34 hours of outboard use on the TI, steering with the rudder. The last rudder pin I broke was after 1 hour of outboard use 5 months ago. I was actually sailing at the time and had the outboard raised. I was on a broad reach in 25 knot winds.
So I'd say outboard use has little effect on the rudder pins. The great benefit of the outboard is you are able to steer easily if you do break a rudder pin, just by loosening the steering lock and using the outboard conventionally.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:38 am 
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Location: Laem Sing, Chanthaburi, Thailand
stringy wrote:
I've just clocked up 34 hours of outboard use on the TI, steering with the rudder. The last rudder pin I broke was after 1 hour of outboard use 5 months ago. I was actually sailing at the time and had the outboard raised. I was on a broad reach in 25 knot winds.
So I'd say outboard use has little effect on the rudder pins. The great benefit of the outboard is you are able to steer easily if you do break a rudder pin, just by loosening the steering lock and using the outboard conventionally.


Thanks stringy for the insight of experience. I only have 10 hours on my outboard, and was going to do like you suggest, use it as back-up in the event of steering failure with the rudder. So far I've just kept the outboard locked in position and used the rudder without and problems.

Thanks
John


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:06 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2980
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I have broken dozens of rudder pins and am pretty certain that 90% of my rudder pin failers were self induced. It's always the same story. When lauching or retrieving, or running into shallows (a lot of shallows around here), and bumping the bottom the rudder pin gets damaged, not completely just half broke either at the top or at the bottom. Sometimes you can feel harder steering when it's half broke but not always. Then while out sometimes hours later the rudder misteriously fails in open water, and I sit there scratching my head, 'what the heck did I do this time (lol)'.
Now days I'm much more careful, and walk back and check the rudder pin much more often, It's been a year or two since breaking any rudder pins, that's why I say most of my rudder pin issues are self induced.
I always lock my motors and steer with the main rudder without issue (since 2010).
The only exception being speed, I have massive sailsets on my TI (up to 260sq ft), and twin big ole outboards mounted on the TI (our TI is now our only family boat, and we use it for anything and everything water related, (including offshore)). One thing we discovered (the hard way) is as the boat speed increases so does the water force against all the components, "the force of water increases exponentially with speed". My typical cruise speed in very light winds (under 7mph) is around 9-10 mph, even at those low speeds the TI is an exhausting handful to sail. I typically never go out in anything over 7mph winds, When I do go out in higher winds (12-15mph) with my motors at WOT I can easily cruise at 15mph,(which is the max speed my motors can handle without exploding,(Yea I've exploded a few). Anything over 15mph I have to tilt the motors up. However I seldom ever do that, as my fuel economy goes out the window, from 80-100 mpg down to under 20mpg (just not worth it, too painful).
With my big ole spinnaker and decent winds (over 20mph) the boat has been over 20mph many times. Sometimes just playing around I put my hydrofoils on (they are removable), and go out foiling around. I can get up on the foils only in downwind and only in winds over 15mph. Can't foil upwind unless I'm using the motors, (the foils are tuned to rise the boat up out of the water at around 8mph). I've had several serious crashes with the foils and no longer use them.
This is where the boat design begins to break down, (speed). For example in a gust if you bury an AMA at speed the nylon sheer pins simply break from the sheer water force. Same with the rudder, if your barreling along at 20 mph and have to crank the rudder hard to avoid another boat, the rudder just snaps off and flies up into the air. Sometimes taking the rudder gudgeon and all. When that happens my day is over, and I have to steer back home using one or both the motors.

Another issue with these boats and speed is if you hit a series of big powerboat wakes, or big chop the boat is very likely to dive and pitchpole (lol 20 to zero in one second flat), I've pitchpoled a half dozen times, kinda embarrassing, especially when you snap your rear stay line and run over your own spinnaker in the water.

Another wierd thing that goes on with speed is above a certain speed (I think around 10-12mph), what happens is all the scupper drains reverse direction and become drinking fountains, result is the entire back half of the boat fills up to the gunwales with water, doesn't seem to hurt anything as long as your not sitting in the back seat, (that's why I always sit in the front so I don't have to sit in waste deep water).
I could care less what anyone else does with their boat's, sharing where the failures are likely to occur is hopefully helpful. If you want a gofast boat get a hobie cat.
FE


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
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Location: Colorado
Same experience as Stringy, lots of hours with the 2.5 hp outboard and have never broken a rudder pin. I think some conditions sailing put way more stress on the rudder than motoring does.

I will have to try the steering just using the outboard.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:55 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Walt:
Rigging your outboard so in a pinch (rudder break) you can use the outboard to get you home is a good backup solution, It's likely you will never need it, but knowing it's there gives me peace of mind when I go offshore, (been in serious trouble plenty of times offshore).
I've never taken my TI out without an outboard since early 2010, lol the first two times I took the boat out when it was new I got in serious trouble, never again. Doesn't mean you ever have to use it, but knowin it's there gives me peace of mind.
FE


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 8:06 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Laem Sing, Chanthaburi, Thailand
Thanks for the replies. I feel much more comfortable now about how I run the outboard.

Cheers
John


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:35 pm
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Location: Niceville, Florida
I’m kind of new to motoring, but I stumbled on to an effective way to reduce stress on the rudder when under motor power. Today was my fifth outing with the Honda 2.3 on the T.I. Every time we’ve been out I have mounted the motor in a slightly different position either very close to the boat or a bit further out, the rudder feels different every trip, so today while cruising slowly (under power) I just pulled the rudder up completely, and the boat took a pronounced turn to the left, Ah-Ha, I pulled the tiller toward me slightly till the boat was going straight, THEN lock the steering. Dropped the rudder back down, no difference in tiller feel, turning either left or right. You shoudn’t assume the boat will travel “straight” just by eye-balling the motor position, and clamping it down. Just an observation from today’s outing, I don’t recall seeing it mentioned before on this excellent forum.

_________________
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:13 pm
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mcoop57 wrote:
I’m kind of new to motoring, but I stumbled on to an effective way to reduce stress on the rudder when under motor power. Today was my fifth outing with the Honda 2.3 on the T.I. Every time we’ve been out I have mounted the motor in a slightly different position either very close to the boat or a bit further out, the rudder feels different every trip, so today while cruising slowly (under power) I just pulled the rudder up completely, and the boat took a pronounced turn to the left, Ah-Ha, I pulled the tiller toward me slightly till the boat was going straight, THEN lock the steering. Dropped the rudder back down, no difference in tiller feel, turning either left or right. You shoudn’t assume the boat will travel “straight” just by eye-balling the motor position, and clamping it down. Just an observation from today’s outing, I don’t recall seeing it mentioned before on this excellent forum.

Excellent tip on how to set an outboard to a neutral steering trim.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:12 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
This is strictly my own preference, I prefer to have my motors as close to the hull as possible, and the motor tilted inward, (about 5 degrees), so the props are kind of under the hull. This helps with tacking and keeps the prop on the upper side from sucking in air, (you can clearly hear the prop aeration, (if that's a word, lol)), and see the trail of bubbles behind the boat, plus a loss of speed/power.
When running just one motor, I turn the motor slightly, so the prop wash is closer to the rudder, this make my boat track in a straight line. I had the motor mounted too far out the first few times out, and could easily turn left, but couldn't turn to the right, moving the motor closer to the hull, tilting it slightly, and turning it slightly inward, helped a lot with turning ability with the standard rudder.
FE


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
mcoop57 wrote:
I pulled the tiller toward me slightly till the boat was going straight, THEN lock the steering. Dropped the rudder back down, no difference in tiller feel, turning either left or right. You shoudn’t assume the boat will travel “straight” just by eye-balling the motor position, and clamping it down. Just an observation from today’s outing, I don’t recall seeing it mentioned before on this excellent forum.


I tried your suggestion MC and it worked! The rudder felt less pressured.
What a great idea and thanks for sharing! 8)

PS -I often drop the centreboard while motoring and it makes steering more responsive with no noticeable speed drop.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:36 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:52 pm
Posts: 282
Location: North carolina
Thanks MC. Learned new tricks. This forum is great!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 8:06 pm
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Location: Laem Sing, Chanthaburi, Thailand
Thanks. And once again the forum comes through to answer my questions and guide me.

Got to love it. :D

Cheers,
John


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