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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:09 am 
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Keith, I am in Jupiter Florida. Thank you everyone for the information!
I am definitely getting the stronger pin. I have been trying to recreate what happened and I know the centerboard was down. I was in the vantage seat and I believe it happened when I was jibing. Too much pressure causing the pin to break and then the big dump?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:41 am 
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Location: South Florida
Robcut1, I've made a small post about why Nylatron pins are stronger than regular Hobie shear pins. http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&p=285297#p285297 Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:05 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
If you fit stronger pins without keep out lines as well, all you will succeed in doing is making any eventual capsize from breaking a stronger pin more violent. I definitely would never fit stronger pins without also adding keep out lines, or other means of preventing instant capsize caused by a broken pin.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:11 am 
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Yes, you COULD say that, Tony. You could also argue that with the 20-25% stronger Nylatron pins you will NEVER have an open water aka-brace shear pin break again. Personally, I use the Nylatron pins AND keep-out lines. Might as well cover all the bases.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:44 pm 
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I ordered the stronger pins as well as the nylon braces for the keep out lines and sincerely appreciate all your suggestion!
Rob


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:19 am
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Location: Sydney, Australia
Thankfully, the only time I've broken an aka pin was when I bumped an aka against a bollard when towing it away from a boat ramp, before I'd folded the amas in. From my perspective it did its job, saving me from bending an aka.

We use tramps and so far haven't fitted aka keep-out lines, as we are usually sailing with the kids aboard and we don't push too hard, but would the additional breaking strain of the nylatron bolts increase the risk of damaging an aka if the ama gets a decent biff, say out of the water?

And @Keith, can the nylatron bolts be sourced in Australia, or did you have to order from the US?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Location: South Florida
Tramps apparently serve much the same purposes as keep-out lines. I'm a non-user, but that is my understanding.

A month ago, I rammed an ama into a dock because a rudder line came loose and the wind blew me & my tandem back into the dock. The ama/aka took a pretty good blow, i could see it give and spring back, but the Nylatron pin did not break (it was clearly damaged as later inspection showed,) but neither did the aka break or fold.

Smithcorp, I don't know if you can get the Nylatron pins in Australia; however, you can make your own stronger pins. Amazon has 1/4" x 1' lengths of 6/6 Nylon rods--probably the same material that Hobie pins are made with. Here is the Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW ... Z102UTKBMA You can also buy 5' lengths of this stuff: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0070 ... PDKIKX0DER

These rods are the same thickness as the Nylatron pins. Once you get a piece of that 1/4" rod, simply cut a length for your pin, drill a small hole at each end, insert the pin (rod) into the aka-brace hole, put a couple of Tony's small electrical ties in, one at each end, and you've made your own stronger shear pin. Make a half dozen of the cut and drilled rods and you have your spares. Be sure to have some electrical ties handy with your spares also.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:21 pm 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
Cheers thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:38 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Brisbane Australia
I have had my TI since May 2014 but have only just discovered these forums. I typically sail in Moreton Bay (SE Queensland, AU) which is largely protected waters or around Yamba NSW, AU where I have a bad habit of surfing the TI across river bars and offshore reefs. Most of the time I have tramps out as I usually have a front seat passenger who kindly balances the boat for me. In that time, I have broken one rudder pin, through my carelessness but never an aka sheer pin; maybe I am just not pushing the boat hard enough!!

I have had the boat up to 22 kph (about 12 knots) while on a wave (measured by GPS) so it is not the speed as such that breaks the pins. What I watch for is the balance of the boat and particularly how far into the water I am pushing the leeward arma. It is easy to over-power these boats, and the depth of the arma is a pretty good indication of when you are doing that. A balanced boat, with not too much sail out and a leeward arma with a few centimetres of freeboard usually makes for the fastest ride with minimal weather helm.

The whole idea of stronger pins worries me. I know some in the local Island Club have gone as far as installing Stainless Steel pins and accept the risks of doing significant damage. I prefer to avoid hitting things and sailing within the envelope of what the boat is designed to handle.

Terry, Brisbane AU

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SE Queensland, AU
TI owner since 2014; sailor since I was a kid.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:46 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Chekika wrote:
Tramps apparently serve much the same purposes as keep-out lines. I'm a non-user, but that is my understanding.
Keith


That's been my experience. My '10 TI is still on its original pins but I've always used tramps. Broke 3 on my AI without tramps in the early days.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Location: North Jersey/NYC
I didn't read the whole thread, but I though it would be appropriate to post my story here. Yes, a TI can flip.

It happened to me the other day and caught me by complete surprise. I was out on the Hackensack River by my home on a 12 MPH gusting to 20 windy day. I was on a flat section, no waves, just me sitting in the rear seat. As I was taking in all the sun and marshes’ green, thinking to myself what a nice way to relax, a strong gust hit the sail from the side and the TI started leaning over rapidly. It was too fast for me to do anything. I didn’t even have time to let the main sheet loose. The TI flipped in probably 1.5 seconds. No pin broke, nothing failed, just strong wing and no weight to counter its force.

I swam right from under the boat in the murky water and floated next to it. What an awful feeling. I got so much gear on my TI, its ridicules, and all was under water. All I saw was yellow hull with a dagger board and the drive fins pointing up. My Suzuki motor (which was off thanks god!), BT speakers, GPS, dry box, cooler, auxiliary 3 gallons fuel tank, spinnaker kit, and much more, all under the murky water.

It was relatively warm and I was wearing 2 piece wetsuit, wet shoes, life vest with submersible radio and a knife. This wasn’t in no way a life threatening situation, but I admit, I freaked out for a moment there fearing to lose the boat. Luckily I watched the ”how to right an Island” video on the forum and I prepared for it in advance. I will tell you that removing the trampoline, the “keep out” lines and all that were in my way of folding one Ama was a pain. I had to float around the boat and figuring all by touch and memory. I attached a line to each Ama’s grab handle and wrapped it in such way I can release a small carabiner and pull the line out in one motion. That came in real handy. No need to fiddle around looking for a line. I climbed up on the hull, pulled on the line from the opposite Ama and leaned back, tilting the TI. My boat is heavy with the motor, fuel, cooler, anchor and more, and I had to summon all my might and 235 lb for the purpose but I managed to right the boat.

As soon as it was up, I furled the sail and opened the Ama. Surprisingly as soon as I got the boat up, the music started playing from by submersible speakers and upon a quick inspection, I realized I lost nothing. Everything was leashed (after paying $150 to replace a lost Hobie pedal, you leash stuff). It took me probably 45 minutes to an hour to bring the boat to its prior condition. The spinnaker I removed turned into a mess of ropes and I was working from the muddy bank. But I did it.

I will tell you it was a great feeling knowing I was put to the test and passed. If it was in high sea, I would have to put a lot more effort into it. I will also speculate if I had an able partner, it would have been a lot easier. My advise is to prepare in advance and be ready. The next thing I am going to look into is moving to the front seat when going out solo. For that I need to MacGyver moving the motor controls to the front, build hakas to seat on while countering the wind forces (tramps are awful since whatever way your in them, you get wet) and get a pole to extend the reach for the rudder handle. Well, winter is coming so I'll have the time I guess.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:36 am
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Location: Long Jetty, NSW
Hi

I’ve been out sailing today in a wind of about 15 knots plus. This is what my smart phone weather app was saying but it was quite gusty and seemed stronger. I was in a TI and sailing from the rear seat. I’ve found that I much prefer to sail from the rear seat when solo as visibility is better.

I have tramps and as I have found previously in wind gusts the wind can get under the windward tramp and lifting the bow of the windward float, this feels a bit disconcerting but is probably safe. I was wondering if sailing from the front seat would be more stable? What I ended up doing was pulling up on a sandbar and rolling up the tramps. This made the boat feel much more stable.

I also found that when sailing “close hauled” the boat points higher with better speed if I pinch into the wind to prevent being overpowered instead of furling the sail. I’ve found that furling really kills the TI’s ability to point.

Do others find that sailing from the front is better in stronger winds?

Cheers

Brad

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Papaya Tandem Island - "Dry Reach"
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:18 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I have difficulty sailing from the back seat, especially in higher winds, probably more so because I have a jib than anything else, when I'm in the back seat my bow goes way up in the air and gets blown around quite a bit, making things like turning more difficult for me, more than once I was heading toward another boat and needed to course correct, I locked the rudder to one side and nothing happens.
Besides I hate that sail control line cutting across my neck when in the back seat, so I typically ride solo in the front seat. I keep my boat setup so I can sail from either seat, it's nice to switch things up once in a while.
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:49 am 
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I've tried front and rear solo and they each have their trade-offs.

Front pros: points higher and goes to windward better. Sails better when reefed (than it does from solo rear). Furling and reefing are easier.
Front cons: killer weather helm in strong winds and gusts, sometimes impossible to bear off without a big ease on the sheet. Wet.

Rear pros: dryer. Easier to watch sail trim. Feels faster downwind and broad reaching.
Rear cons: Lee helm upwind. Lots of leeway on starboard as the centerboard nearly comes out to of the water. Doesn't sail as well to windward, and is even worse when reefed.

I mostly sail from the rear, though.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Hezi wrote:
Yes, a TI can flip....


Great write up Hezi and a valuable learning experience. Glad it worked out OK! 8)
I’m interested in how well the Suzuki recovered and what did you have to do to get it started?

PS - I only ever sail from the haka in strong winds. As well as balancing the boat and making it safer, you can have a bit more sail out than when sitting in the seat and get better speed. Haka transform the sailing so well I couldn’t go back to sitting in the rear seat, which now only occurs in very light winds or downwind under spinnaker or motoring.


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