2015 AI Capsize

TI_Tom, et al, that is exactly why I've never been interested in using tramps. Scary in the right circumstances.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Chekika,

I don't know if the tramps alone caused the partial capsize. I would suspect they played a role. However, I think it was mostly sail area. I wasn't moving forward with any noticeable speed as I was in the middle of a tack. When the gust hit it seemed like the boat crabed sideways, which immediately buried the leeward ama. It was as if the dagger board wasn't even there. It was hair raising for sure and I'm pretty certain the 3 or 4 boats around me heard the steady stream of expletives.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

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2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

• Trampolines
• Hobie cover
• Davis Spar Fly
• Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
• Spine Board Hakas

Keith that makes no sense to me, it's the surface area of the wind blowing on that giant sail over our heads that capsizes the boat. The surface area of the tramp is not enough to flip the boat. If your trapped in the seat with no tramps then you have no chance of scrambling out and balancing the boat. I have never launched my TI without tramps on.
I guess different strokes for different folks.
FE

Ive never used tramps on a TI but sailed a Hobie 14 for a couple years sometimes in fairly high wind and the tramp on the H14 definately created some lift that would try and capsize the boat. Consider that the more you heel, the higher the drag on the tramp gets and that force is trying to flip you. Maybe the tramps on the TI are different but it sure looks to me like they would aid a boat going over.

Exactly my experience popping the shear bolt with a version of the keeper lines. I replaced the sheer bolt on the water, boat upright.. not a big deal.

Yes, definitely, different strokes for different folks. We have to be careful about judging others based on our own personal experience. Still getting back to the point, you, FE, have much more sail surface area than any of the rest of us and your sail is going to play a much larger role in any capsize situation. I have to point out, FE, that you have widened each of your akas by a foot or so, just to prevent capsize. For the rest of us, with a standard Hobie sail and akas, my view is, that as the boat begins to capsize due to wind pressure on the sail (aided by sea conditions,) two things are going to happen with tramps. (1) The windward one is going to catch wind and aid in the capsize. And, equally important, (2) the downwind tramp is now immersed and and acting as a giant brake. It can actually "trip" the Island as it is starting to capsize from wind pressure. This wind pressure is real. I remember the first time I used hakas, I noted wind pressure lifting the windward side.

BTW, at my age, I'm not doing a lot of "scrambling" out on the tramp or haka to prevent the boat from capsizing. In that regard, when I did capsize my AI 2 due to aka brace pin break in 17-18 mph winds, the boat was over in 3-4 seconds. Insta-capsize! Over before I even realized what was happening.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I definately don't want to offend anyone, just trying to share some of my own experiences in the hope it will help others keep safe, as there is a lot to these boats (cause and effect wise), that I have found out by very hard knocks.
You just mentioned something that never dawned on me before. That's the tramp that is buried underwater as a capsize is beginning could actually make a capsize worse.
FE

Chekika,
You are probably right about the leeward tramp acting as a brake when submerged. Mine was completely under and with nothing broken or folded in the full surface area was under water (20 sqft?).

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

_________________
2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

• Trampolines
• Hobie cover
• Davis Spar Fly
• Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
• Spine Board Hakas

I made my single tramp out of webbong with that in mind.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP ... JaRW5TYzBR

Facilitates deep-water remounts, makes a handy single-blade paddle stash with no apparent downside save a couple minutes extra rigging time.

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2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]

I'm a big fan of the Hobie tramps and have been using them since I got my first AI back in 2008.
These days I never sail my TI without them. I have had them on in 30knot winds and have never capsized. I do furl the sail when the winds are around 20 knots, but I've never felt the need to roll the tramps up.
To me the advantages far outweigh the disadvantage of contributing to a capsize, which in my experience is a very small risk. They are more useful on the TI as paddling isn't restricted. That was my main gripe with them on the AI.
The irony in this thread is that tramps would probably have prevented Keith's capsize as the ama would have been held out by the tramps when the aka brace pin broke!

I agree that tramps would have prevented my AI 2 capsize, but so would properly fitting hakas and/or keep-out lines. It still does not change my view of tramps. I do use hakas on all camping trips and most of the time on day sails. I had hakas on my AI 2 when I capsized, but they were designed for my 2011 AI, and were much too loose fitting on the AI 2. They did nothing to prevent the capsize. I've sold those and now have proper fitting hakas. Because of Hobie's redesign of the AI 2 to match the Tandem with respect to aka span, my hakas now fit both. My current hakas, as well as simply my keep-out lines, would likely prevented my capsize.

My keep-out lines are described here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=720

Tests of those lines at 8 mph are described here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=735

Finally, the cause of my capsize was a broken aka-brace pin which occurred in open seas similarly to what PeteCress has described recently. Pete broke 2 Hobie aka-brace pins in one day. His breaks also occurred in open water on his AI 2. I now have nylatron pins in all my aka-braces, both AI 2 and Tandem. Those nylatron pins, which are both stronger and more wear-resistant than Hobie's nylon pins, are described here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=780

Above are described 4 means (tramps, hakas, keep-out lines, nylatron pins) which should prevent insta-capsize due to unexpected breakage of a Hobie aka-brace pin in open waters. Hopefully, these preventatives will eliminate such capsizes forever!

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

That was my experience when I broke 2 aka brace pins on the same day: first one on the non-tramp side, second one on the tramp side.

Non-tramp side, I was in the water before I knew what happened.

Tramp side, hardly noticed it.

But I still have a variation of Chekka's keep-out line on the tramp side as well as the non-tramp side with the thought of making tramp use optional.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]

Can't argue with Stringy. In our sailing conditions, the tramps are just as likely to catch a wave, as catch a strong sidewind. Both could contribute to a capsize.

Waves on the beam actually worry me more because you don't have the same time and ability to react to them.

So hiking out, especially on Hakas provides me with much more confidence and visibility.

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The Wind Is Your Friend...