Design Flaw

I can, yes. And until and unless you try it, you can't say what it will or won't do.

But once again, nobody is forced to try the horn cleat if they don't believe it's going to be something they'll like. I put it out there for those that might want to try that option over the factory supplied camcleat. That's all.

Matt, do you pull daggers up when heading up as well as running? If so, would that work on a TI or would the hull shape cause the boat to slide too much?

Thanks.

Some people are very good at visualizing things, even if they have never tried them. All of us know and have used open (horn) cleats.

Tom, I think the problem that some of us are having with the open cleat option is, why try it if we are happy with the cam cleat set up? You sparked the discussion with your statement:


And, I don't agree with your statement, "Unless the wind is very, very light, it should be in your hand most of the time." Even the day I capsized, I had no time to release anything. I was over in an instant--didn't even see it coming. I didn't believe it in that first and only instant. Suddenly, the aka/ama was within a foot of the hull. Out of the corner of my eye, I could see the windward aka/ama/haka up high overhead. My insta-thought, "I'm going over." I did. I went over so hard, the end of the mast and sail pocket gauged mud out of the bottom (6-7' deep) as it bounced off the bottom. It was not a "slow" capsize.

That was my first capsize in 8 yrs of Island sailing. It was in strong winds, rough chop, with a broken shear pin--insta-capsize, as Yakass says. Personally, I'm not going to hold a line in my hand hoping to avoid a capsize in the next 8 yrs. I am going to deploy "keep-out" lines, always.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I was under the impression from this thread that some are not happy with the supplied camcleat set-up. So I offered an alternative. That's all. Hopefully some of those who aren't happy with their camcleat will give my idea a try. I suspect some will find it superior, while others who try it may not.

On cats and windsurfers... daggers can be partially retracted when sailing upwind... when the wind is up. I would think the Islands are similar, but not being as fast through the water this may not be as effective as it is on a catamaran. Absolutely when not pointing high into the wind you can do this. Something to try I think.

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Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

I wonder if this is why my boat always feels faster on a starboard tack versus port tack - since, when on a starboard tack, there is less dagger board in the water due to heeling and the dagger board being mounted on the starboard side. I think I'll play with the dagger board a bit the next time I'm out. I usually just put it all the way down and forget about it.

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-- Chad | 2014 TI

All good food for thought.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I was looking at a video I posted a year ago. It was the start of a camping trip, winds were about 25 mph, gusting to 30. As I emerged from the protection of the shore trees and began to feel the brunt of the winds, you can see that I was uncomfortable and had the main line in my hand at the ready. As things went south, I did release the cleated main sheet at 54-55 sec into the video, although it happens so fast you may miss it. In the repeat, slo-mo version, I can be seen releasing the main sheet at 1:42 min. I was using my 2011 AI. Here is the 2 minute video.




When I capsized in my AI 2 last April, I was not feeling threatened. It was just a nice, windy day sailing. I was taking a video shortly before the disaster. No problems...until the insta-capsize.




Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Thanks! I've pulled boards up when running but never played with them on other points on the mono hulls that I've sailed. That old habit carried over to our TI so the fresh point of view is appreciated.

I was browsing my 2014 Hobie Mirage Tandem Island Owners Manual and, on p17, 3:1 Mainsheet Conversion, and found: "Most solo operation of the boat is from the back seat, ...."



Maybe my friends weren't leading me astray! Of course, I never intend to solo my tandem (I have an AI 2 for solo sailing), so I will always have a partner in the front seat to handle the centerboard, the furling line, and tiller when needed. Depending on the front seat person, they may even hike out on the hakas to keep us level and moving faster. All sounds good to me. Nancy and I did our first sail 2 days ago. A 14 mile run in Biscayne Bay.




Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I believe there is a miniimum weight of the solo TI sailor that makes sailing from the rear seat a real negative when exceeded. I don't know what is the magic number, but can assure folks that it is less than 300#. I sit in the front seat, which happens to spread my heft close to evenly front and back. Sure I get more nose-burying, but I can minimise this by loading heavier stuff down back.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

I can assure you it's less than 230#.

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2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

• Trampolines
• Hobie cover
• Davis Spar Fly
• Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
• Spine Board Hakas

I suspect my situation is different than most peoples specifically because I have never sailed my TI without a jib sail which probably completely changes the handling characteristics of the boat. The angled foresail creates quite a bit of lift to the bow, with the foresail the tip of my bow is normally 3-4 inches out of the water when I'm in the front seat, when in the back seat solo the bow is about a foot free and clear of the water. The foot of my jib is mounted about a foot ahead of the bow cleat on my bowsprit. The side force created by the jib when sitting solo in the rear makes steering near impossible. When sailing tandem the boat is perfectly balanced and can be sailed from either position easily. I have also never had my TI out without at least 1 outboard mounted to the boat for safety reasons. I assume all these things factor in though I fail to see any difference in the boats handling with a 20-25 lb outboard hanging off the back tilted up. Actually even with twin 25 lb (ea) outboards tilted up I can't detect any changes to the sailing characteristics of my TI. Actually having a little extra weight in the rear appears to improve things a little (for me anyway).
Everyone has a different situation, I have my setup rigged and tuned to solo from the front seat, it works for me thats all that matters to me.
FE

With regards to the cleat and sheet, has anyone moved it to the left side. I have some tendonitis in my right hand.

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2007 AI - starting to fall apart

Dear Tom,
last time I was out with my Ai I tried your suggestion.
I just passed the mainsheet line under the aka and I was really surprised how easily I was able to manage the line.
So I would be going to follow your mod.
I already installed a passtrough ring under the aka, and I am going to install an horn cleat,
But I was also thinking that instead of use an horn cleat it could be better to use a zig-zag cleat.
Have you never consider such an option?

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Biagio