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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:31 pm 
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Location: High Point, NC
No, with a horn cleat you don't have to manage it 100% of the time. You can either leave it uncleated, half cleated or full cleated, which you can't do with the supplied clamcleat where you're either cleated or uncleated. The horn cleat just gives you a 3rd option and a better means of handling the sheet in a wider variety of conditions.

I do a LOT of sailing on a LOT of different boats. The #1 reason for most sailing capsizes among those I sail with is - keeping the mainsheet cleated in an auto-camcleat like the one on the Island.

Not trying to force anyone around to my way of doing things, but for the Islands, the horn cleat next to the seat is worth a serious look. I hope anyone that tries it will report back here with how they liked it, or didn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:20 pm 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
I do a LOT of sailing on a LOT of different boats. The #1 reason for most sailing capsizes among those I sail with is - keeping the mainsheet cleated in an auto-camcleat like the one on the Island.

Fortunately, very, very few Islands capsize. When they do capsize, it is NOT because of a cleated main sheet, but because of an aka-brace broken shear pin. Yakass has referred to broken shear pins as “insta-capsize.” From my experience, I would agree.

Tom, you have said above and elsewhere, that much of your experience is with many other sail boats. I believe you own a Weta, or did own one. The Weta is a high-performance boat. They DO CAPSIZE regularly because of their very tall mast and large sail area and, maybe, because their captain hard-cleated a sail.

Image

I fail to see why we would sail our Islands as if we were sailing a Weta with the main sheet in our hand at all times.


Tom Kirkman wrote:
No, with a horn cleat you don't have to manage it 100% of the time. You can either leave it uncleated, half cleated or full cleated….

“Full cleated,” you have a very slow release. “Half cleated,” you are holding on the main sheet--I assume this is the way you sail your Islands. “Uncleated?” I’m at a loss for that open cleat position. Your sail just flaps free, right?

Tom Kirkman wrote:
…which you can't do with the supplied clam cleat where you're either cleated or uncleated.

I didn’t make myself clear. I believe you have said, you never cleat your main on the water. Your main sheet with the open cleat is analog—your hand controls the sheet at all times, continuously variable. I should have said my main sheet control was digital. I let the sheet out a bit, cleat it, let it out more, cleat it, sheet it in, cleat it. So, my main is adjustable, step by step, digital. I can, if I’m uncomfortable with the wind/wave conditions, uncleat my main sheet and hold it in my hand, and make it analog like you do.

We sail differently. That is what makes these Hobies great for a landlubber like me.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:40 pm 
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I also sail Hobie 16's, T2s, Nacras, TriFoiler, etc., etc. yes these are all higher performance boats than the Islands. But in any case, once you cleat the mainsheet, you are not going to keep your sail in trim on a specific course. Then again, if you're just cruising around, you don't need to. I understand that.

Here are the three positions you can use on a horn cleat - cleated, just like being cleated on a camcleat. Half-cleated, which is with 1/2 turn around the cleat. This takes about 95% of the pressure off your hand-arm. You can then effectively hold the mainsheet with just two fingers if you like, even in a blow. But... if you release those two fingers, the mainsheet will slip free. Then you have uncleated, which leaves the sheet entirely in your hand with full sail pressure on you. So three options rather than two. And... unlike the auto-camcleat, you will never accidently cleat or uncleat it. No angle to worry about. It's right there next to your hand.

Please understand I'm not advocating that everybody with an Island must do this. But I have found it so much better than an auto-clam cleat that I think many who try it will decide as I have that it's the better all-around set-up for the Island. If you know flat out that's it's not for you, fine. But others who may be reading this and looking for an alternative to their current set-up might want to give it a try.

So, in my opinion, the horn cleat next to the seat gives all the advantages of the current camcleat, plus a 3rd option, with none of the disadvantages of bad angles, distance, accidental cleating or uncleating, inability to uncleat, etc., etc. If you'll go to this video and forward to the 5:10 mark, you can see me explain it on the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGjCUREoTwY


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:02 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Keith, just to add another perspective... Many years ago, I commissioned a Ron Holland 1/4 tonner racing yacht. At the time, it was fashionable to have the cabin-top sail controls fed through camcleats and jammers. I deliberately chose horn cleats instead, because they offered better trim control, more secure locking, and clearly visual confirmation that lines were secure. As Tom mentioned, if the line goes round the cleat, the loads on the hands drops to almost nothing. It is an easy single-handed operation to either lift the line off the cleat, or by a simple twist of the tail, lock the line on the horn.

I just might actually add a horn cleat for my mainsheet...

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:57 pm 
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Tony:
I'm doing the same I think it's a great idea. I'll probably keep and use both setups, on light days I'll just use the existing setup. When I get in one of my moods and want to go out hot dogging pushing the limits of the boat, I will definately use the horn cleat.
Fe


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:57 pm 
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Another option is a ratchet block. I rarely sail with the sheet cleated and can do so due to the ratchet block. Spins free as you sheet in and locks as you ease. This takes a lot of the load off your hand, but allows the line to slip when you release your grip. Actually bugs me that it is hard to hold the sheet un-cleated on islands. I would add an auto ratchet somewhere in the system if I set my own up. Then flip the cleat so I'd have to pull up to cleat it. Then a simple tug on the sheet un-cleats it again.

The auto ratchet system works by load. If lightly loaded it spins freely. If loaded, the ratchet feature engages.

http://www.harken.com/article.aspx?id=12838

You need free spinning sheaves in lighter air. Ratchets as the wind picks up.

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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:39 pm 
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Outnumbered, overwhelmed, and overrun...but, give me my clam cleat (actually, Hobie's and make sure it is working) and free hands.

Amen...

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:49 pm 
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Actually this has been interesting hearing how many good ideas are out there. Just pick your fav
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:05 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Chekika wrote:
Outnumbered, overwhelmed, and overrun...but, give me my clam cleat (actually, Hobie's and make sure it is working) and free hands.

Amen...

Keith
Dn't feel bad Keith, discussions like this help us all to learn.

I am using the standard aka-located cleat, and it works fine. Factors which probably help are
(1) my skipper seat base is level with the side rails, and
(2) I am 6' 4", so my shoulders are already a lot higher compared to the cleat than many people.

Having said that, I can fit a horn cleat on my seat platform, so will give that a try.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:49 pm
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Location: Bethany, OK
I can't imagine being "always uncleated" on my TI. I have the sail kit for my Outback and don't have a cleat for it. With that small sail my hand is getting REALLY uncomfortable even after a short sail. Of course the TI has a bit more advantage, especially since I switched to 3:1, but still a lot of force on the line.

I think I may give the horn a try on my Outback. Keep thinking I want a cleat (as well as turning block to get the same sheet action as the TI) but hadn't done it yet since I've taken to sailing the Outback without the sidekicks and definitely want to be able to dump the sail instantly if need be. Sounds like the horn may be very useful there, and no problem having it right beside me since I'm obviously not hiking out on the Outback.


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:47 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Actually this has been interesting hearing how many good ideas are out there. Just pick your fav
FE

I'm thinking of a new post on that.

RandomJoe--I'm strongly with you! Even the name people are using here, "horn cleats," makes my hands start to clench up. Ok, I'll stop using the name "clam cleat" even though I think it is more descriptive. I like cam cleat better, anyway.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:39 am 
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to self.. stay out of this.. stay out of this.. OH NO.

I agree with Keith and also like that setup with the clam cleat moved back and the angle improved for my height (5-10). I almost made no changes to my 2010 AI but had to change the sheet on the 2015 TI. I also had to mess with the furler but that is because Hobie sets the boat up for solo from the front seat. I showed the boat to someone recently who was interested in a TI (and I hope still buys one because they will have a great time with it) and I remember the comment "you sure made a lot of changes to the controls". Part of that is because Im a "serial modifier" (I know there are a BUNCH of you folks here that know exactly what that is LOL) and part of that - I think Hobie needs to improve things a little. Just moving the block to improve the pull/release angle would be a big improvement..

It would also be interesting to take a poll to find out what percent of TI uses uses the front vs back seat when solo. I have no idea.. but if the percent using the back seat solo is significant, also maybe at least sell a kit for furling from the rear seat. (FYI, the centerboard is no problem from the back seat solo).


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:49 am 
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Walt, I'm starting a post for the "serial modifiers" out there.

You know, Hobie recommends the Tandem be solo sailed from the rear.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:15 am 
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Keith:
Where did you get that from (Hobie recommends solo in the rear), I know of nothing more awkward, can't reach the centerboard, can't reach the furler, your head gets chopped off by the sail control lines, there is no way possible to hike out ever. And the bow is so high the boat gets blown off course all the time. I think the opposite is true the boat was pretty much designed to be soloed from the front where in my opinion the boat is much better balanced and you can reach everything easily, you can hike out on the tramps and you don't get your head taken off by the sail control lines. All just my opinion of course, but if I had to solo from the back I would have got rid of the boat a long time ago (I feel totally trapped back there. You have no means to balance the boat to keep the AMA's out of the water))
Your kidding right ?
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Design Flaw
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:34 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Keith:
Where did you get that from (Hobie recommends solo in the rear), I know of nothing more awkward, can't reach the centerboard, can't reach the furler, your head gets chopped off by the sail control lines, there is no way possible to hike out ever. And the bow is so high the boat gets blown off course all the time. I think the opposite is true the boat was pretty much designed to be soloed from the front where in my opinion the boat is much better balanced and you can reach everything easily, you can hike out on the tramps and you don't get your head taken off by the sail control lines. All just my opinion of course, but if I had to solo from the back I would have got rid of the boat a long time ago (I feel totally trapped back there. You have no means to balance the boat to keep the AMA's out of the water))
Your kidding right ?
FE


Not just your opinion fusioneng. I can't sail solo from the aft seat either.

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