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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:15 am 
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I have come across several posts from people so say their Mirage Drive fins have failed because of use at excessive speed.

I assume "Excessive Speed" is 9 mph or more.

Can anybody comment on the failure mode?

The Real Question: If I go out in heavy air with my Mirage Drive installed, am I safe if I keep the fins folded up against the hull in the gusts? i.e. Is the failure usually with fins being used or, at least, extended downwards?

I usually stow the Mirage Drive once the wind gets into the high teens, but sometimes I have found it convenient to have it deployed: e.g. working upwind, surfing boat wakes, and/or rescue-towing a stranded windsurfer or SUP paddler.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:02 pm 
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Sounds non-credible to me. I could certainly imagine Miragedrive fins failing due to excessive speed, if placed underneath a boat doing 50 mph! The very idea that the fins would fail at ANY speed a Hobie Isl;and could reach on water seems totally unbelievable to me.

Pete, I know I have said it before, but you really should stop looking for reasons to avoid enjoying your AI. Heck, I even noticed from your recent photos that you seem to have replaced ALL the running rigging on your AI... surely Hobie's choice of line was not so bad as needing replacement from the get-go? Just sayin'

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:16 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Pete:
The mirage drives are fine up to 12 mph with no issues, however I pedal my TI 100% of the time, I used to average around 15 miles a week ( I had to cut way back recently though (doctors orders)), as a result of so much peddling the fins get stretched out quickly, once the fins are stretched, they get wavy on the trailing edge. This causes the fins to fludder at higher speeds (over 10 mph) if not peddling, I don't think the fluddering gets bad enough to worry about until you are around 12 or above, then the fluddering is visibly shaking the boat, and probably create excessive drag.
As long as you have newer fins, or the flow 90 fins installed you can safely leave the mirage drive in 15-20 mph without difficulty. However if you are traveling much over 10 mph with the standard turbo fins you cannot pedal fast enough for them to provide any usable propulsion. I have successfully been able to test and provide positive propulsion with the flow 90 (Eclipse) fins up to 15 mph. However I don't recommend using the flow 90 fins as a primary propulsion source, they are just too darn hard to pedal. I have two set of fins on my TI, the regular turbo fins in the back (usually with the drive plug in, and the mirage lashed on the deck over the mirage hole), and the flex90 fins in the front. I just switch drives when I want to use one or the other. So even with the flex 90 fins I can still do anything and everything I want to do with the boat.
I think pretty much any stock TI working within it's normal operating range, is not going to have any difficulties with the mirage drives no matter what you do with them

Keep in mind my TI is heavily modified, so most of all this stuff doesn't apply to anyone else, however some of this stuff is nice to know.
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:18 pm 
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tonystott wrote:
Sounds non-credible to me. I could certainly imagine Miragedrive fins failing due to excessive speed, if placed underneath a boat doing 50 mph!
Case Closed, then... and my guess would be that the reports I have read were on older versions of the Mirage Drive.

Quote:
Heck, I even noticed from your recent photos that you seem to have replaced ALL the running rigging on your AI... surely Hobie's choice of line was not so bad as needing replacement from the get-go? Just sayin'
I would say it was every bit so bad. ..... And I would also grade the quality of workmanship and materials in Hobie's sail as C- or D+ .... but that's a whole other thing.....

Granted that's just me... but I found the 2:1 1/4" mainsheet running through the supplied X-bar cleat unusable in winds of high-teens and above.... and in higher winds the inability to un-cleat in gusts seemed flat-out dangerous.

My setup: 3:1, 5/16ths, cleat moved back on to the boat's rail works like I think the Hobie setup should have worked on Day-1: especially the ability to quickly cleat/uncleat with the flick of a wrist....... Maybe I'm just not man enough to handle 1/4" 2:1 in heavy air.... but 3:1 and 5/16ths does the job for me.... and I have read numerous complaints from others about the inability to quickly un-cleat the stock setup.

Ditto the furling line. .... Dunno what I'm using right now, but it's about twice the width of the stuff Hobie supplied and it *still* sometimes cuts into my hands. ... The Hobie-supplied stuff... geeze, they might as well have supplied fishing line.

I found the halyard on the spinkit way too thin too - although upgrading it was not in the cards because of the narrowness of the path through the mast topper.

And it's not like I have delicate hands - after 30+ years of windsurfing I have a grip like a silverback gorilla and I only stopped having to trim my calluses with a razor blade last year after quitting windsurfing.

I suspect that what I consider "Fun" sailing days on the AI are days when Hobie would say "Don't go out: the boat is not rated for that."

This is what I would call a "Fun" day: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP ... JaRW5TYzBR

This is more like an "Interesting" day: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP ... 5TYzBR..... I made the drive down there, so I went out, but "Fun" might not be the most appropriate word...

That being the case I think it is wise to consider various failure modes and what I am going to do to prevent them and/or deal with them when they happen.

To Wit:

- Aka shear bolt failure without hitting anything - and the resulting capsize if no preventive
measures are in place.

- Mirage Drive chain cable failure after religious rinsing after every use and only about one season's use.

- Aka knuckles unexpectedly coming free of the x-bars. (which I have not experienced, but which
others report.... and which I hopefully will not experience bco the keepers I fitted)



I am clearly not your average "Happy Camper" user.... more like a fault-finding poster boy for buyer's remorse - but part of the AI's charm for me is all the things that one can to to make it work they way one thinks it should.

I think I have a pretty good track record of finding problems with things. ..... Back in the mainframe days we used to test each others code before submitting it for formal testing and I earned the nickname "The Kiss of Death"..... and that tendency/ability/obesssion extends to physical things. .... I think about things that, probably, no normal person thinks about. .... Things like the diameter of the bottom plate on the furling drum: It really should be increased as much as possible to reduce the chances of a loose furling line dropping down below the drum and fouling.

My next target is the cleats for the lines that raise/lower/lock the rudder. ..... Sometimes I can get them to cleat without making it a two-handed operation, but mostly they will not cleat. .... I'm thinking something with shimming the cleat to give it a couple degrees of angle....... This is a convenience issue when sailing with a lot of weed in the water because periodically you want to dump weeds from the rudder by quickly un-cleating the lock-down line, yanking the pull-up line, letting go of it, and then yanking the pull-down/lock line and have it cleat without having to bend over and fiddle with two hands...... all very quickly while still under sail.

Similarly, when sailing into the beach, there's plenty to do what with furling the sail and retracting the daggerboard without the rudder-raising/locking line becoming a two-handed intervention.... Again just a convenience... but those lines really should cleat every time.



FWIW, when I got the AI in the water last fall, I gave it a fun factor of 1 or 2 (Windsurfing being 9-10).... and now I have upgraded it 3-4 and 5 might be in the cards..... maybe.....

Part of the process is acceptance of the AI for what it is and not what I wish it were - and part of it being introducing at least a little bit of "Flow" by surfing the chop and zig-zagging in general.

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
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(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
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Last edited by PeteCress on Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:09 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:27 pm 
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(this post needs tb deleted)

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
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Last edited by PeteCress on Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:41 pm 
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Pete,

I understand if you didn't like the 1/4" main sheet supplied by hobie (though I've had no problems, I do wear gloves), but you could easily have routed the original line as a 3:1. It's not add responsive, but it does help if you're holding the line instead of cleating. I also found the original cam cleat was hard to engage/disengage from an angle sitting out on the tramps. I have since added a harken extreme angle fairlead to the main sheet cleat. Now the cleat is almost too sensitive to wrist movements and will cleat and uncleat almost subconsciously.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:50 pm 
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TI_Tom wrote:
I understand if you didn't like the 1/4" main sheet supplied by hobie (though I've had no problems, I do wear gloves), but you could easily have routed the original line as a 3:1. It's not add responsive, but it does help if you're holding the line instead of cleating.
I still carry the original line and used to switch back-and-forth between 1/4" 2:1 and the 3:1 5/16" replacement.... but stopped once I was convinced there was no comparison.

Did the same thing with a separate 1/4" line sized for 3:1.... but same result for me..... There's no question that the 1/4" runs more freely.... but once there is a certain amount of wind, I don't notice the diff and the 5/16" is sooooo much easier on the hands.

Never tried the original 1/4" at 3:1.... always assumed it would be too short.

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
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Last edited by PeteCress on Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:59 pm 
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PeteCress wrote:

Never tried the original 1/4" at 3:1.... always assumed it would be too short.


Switched over to 3:1, obviously you can only man one helm position, so actually you end up with quite a bit of extra line.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:01 pm 
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Wait, I forgot that you have an AI and not a TI. I have a bunch of extra.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:11 pm 
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TI_Tom wrote:
I understand if you didn't like the 1/4" main sheet supplied by hobie (though I've had no problems, I do wear gloves).....
If that is the case on your TI with 8+ meters of sail, maybe my hands aren't as strong/tough as I think they are.....gloves aside.... -)

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:28 pm 
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TI_Tom wrote:
Pete,

I understand if you didn't like the 1/4" main sheet supplied by hobie (though I've had no problems, I do wear gloves), but you could easily have routed the original line as a 3:1. It's not add responsive, but it does help if you're holding the line instead of cleating. I also found the original cam cleat was hard to engage/disengage from an angle sitting out on the tramps. I have since added a harken extreme angle fairlead to the main sheet cleat. Now the cleat is almost too sensitive to wrist movements and will cleat and uncleat almost subconsciously.

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Tom, have you posted a photo of the extreme angle fairlead on your boat? I'd like to see it. Thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:43 pm 
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dvt wrote:
Tom, have you posted a photo of the extreme angle fairlead on your boat? I'd like to see it. Thanks!


You're the first to ask. Here you go!

Image

FYI, I did have to cut the new longer screws so they didn't interfere with the aka inserting.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:48 am 
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Highly recommend the X-treme angle fairlead. Essential when hiking out on haka.
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=37645&p=247322


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:53 am 
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I guess my background in sailing J24s and up has meant that my hands are used to heavier loads... the only control on my TI which can test me out is the spin halyard. Sometimes the loads when pulling the spinnaker back into the snuffer, the "traffic jam" of reinforcing patches at the snuffer mouth can accumulate.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:58 am 
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stringy wrote:
Highly recommend the X-treme angle fairlead. Essential when hiking out on haka.
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=37645&p=247322

Thanks to Tom and stringy! I saw those posts in the hakas thread but didn't understand the relevance until now. I sailed quite a few hours with heavier winds recently and wished for easier de-cleating a few times.

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