Return to Hobie.com
Hobie Forums
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:25 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:08 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:52 pm
Posts: 26
https://youtu.be/oJhoExyhWIU

See the video first...

As we can see a few comments in different foros And a lot of interest in why, how and what´s wrong..., Let´s explain a bit longer. Good for everybody to learn and prevent:

First to explain we are a group (Abisal12) sometimes sailing our Ti´s beyond its normal limits. Because the weather changes or because we need to pass through out a special zone.To do that from time to time, we have some regulations and preparations on the Kayaks. Mods like ropes to tie up the akas, plastic pin replacement, carrying spares as akas, pedals, VHF, etc are done normally. Some of those mods aren´t with controversy; improves some aspects and safety but downgrade the Ti´s in others. So for example, replacing the plastic pins is a good thing to increase the strength but could be negative if you brake the full aka...

So, I do not recommend sailing Ti´s beyond its limits and you limits. If you need to do so for any reason, do it with a lot of preparation in Ti, equipment, helping group, preparation, procedures and route and alternates selections.

So, what we did wrong that day:

1- Preparation. As we were in a hurry to leave, another member of the group took my akas with my metal pins instead. I prepared the Ti so quickly I didn´t notice the change. So, I thought we were wearing the metal pins. If noticed, for sure we were taking the sailing with xtra care.
From now on we have all our material perfectly identify, in good order and well stored in our base of operations.

2- Control. The first in sailing need to check sailing conditions for the rest, via visual or radio. Almost everybody forgot about this checking procedure and there was a good chance to loose the Ti with problems.

3- Rescue and help. We did well and we ( the Ti in trouble) notify to the first Ti to arrived that we were OK and we´re trying to recover the Ti. Unfortunately the rescue Ti did not take a safety distance and crash again us with good chances to brake something else.
First rescue: check condition, keep a safety distance and notify to the rest...

4- Unilateral decisions. Obviously it took longer than usually to recover the Ti and without asking the rest or asking us first, there was a member who abandon his Ti leaving his Ti with just one guy and start swimming toward our position. The result was my partner was forced to leave our broken Ti and catch and help the crew who was unable to reach our position by swimming with his life jacket on. Finally and after recover my Ti we were forced to take the xtra crew with us and sail the remaining two miles with three on board in our Ti with lot of water inside.
So; do not take unilateral decisions, keep closed to the problem to see if any help is requested and ask the group first. All of us with experience in upright the Ti´s but nobody in such weather conditions...Nothing more dangerous at sea than an autocall "expert" trying to solve the problem by himself.
Thanks for reading...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:36 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2498
Location: Central Florida
Great review on a situation many of us could (or have) gotten ourselves into.

I get teased at times because each of the pieces of my boats are color-coded with a "trim" color, for the reason you mentioned. Each piece gets to the correct boat when assembling and putting away. On our early AI's (2006-2007) Hobie changed the mast bottom so some masts had a pin while others the pin was in the mast cup. Once we had taken the wrong mast for the boat and had to run home to switch them. Many other changes year-by-year. Best that all the parts you rely on are what and where you expect them.

From our whitewater canoeing days, we carry throw-rope bags on each of our boats. They take little room and typically hold 50-75 feet of rope. Ours are home made and hold 100 feet and are also used for anchoring or other extra line. The one time a Hobie Island flipped because of a aka pin break in 3-4 foot waves, we were able to easily throw a line from 30-40 feet away, over the flipped hull. With throw-rope bags, you hold the loose end loop and throw the bag which is heavier and feeds out the rope as it goes. By tying the rope on the far side of the hull it was easy to just let the waves do most of the work on the rescue Hobie Island to gently roll the boat while the crew held onto the end(s) of their boat. Much safer than playing bumper cars. I often tell new people sailing with us that once away from the shore we're the most danger to each other out here.

Thank you for the detailed review and reminder to always be prepared. Sail together - work out problems together - and have safe fun!

Image

_________________
Image
Hobie Island Sailing since 2006


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:45 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3058
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Another thing that can get in the way is pride.

One time I flipped at the mouth of big pass in Sarasota bay, the current there is 5mph going out to sea. It was cold, as I was righting the boat a guy on a jet ski came up and asked if I needed help. I said no and he sped off. By this time after 10 minutes or so I had the boat upright and the sails all furled up. My muscles gave up on me and I couldn't get back in the boat because I was exhausted. I started trying to swim the boat over to siesta beach, at the time that shore was 1/4 mile away but I was swimming against a 5mph current.
My wife was at Lido beach with our friends at the time, (maybe a mile to 1.5 miles away). By the time she got to me with the other kayak to help we were a mile out. It took another 2 hrs for us to get back in peddling our hearts out against the wind and current. I'm pretty sure I had hypothermia.
All because I was to proud to accept help, My stupidity put her in grave danger as well.
Lesson learned, you have 5-10 minutes before hypothermia and exhaustion set in, to save yourself, don't be too proud to use that darn whistle.
FE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:14 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2893
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Firstly, I would like to thank you for providing frank opinion on what happened. I have shown the video to many people, partly to reassure them that even in severe conditions, it is possible to be safe, but also to show some parts which were not so good.

I hope friendships were not permanently damaged by the events, after all everybody's intentions were good, even if some things were not s satisfactory.

I remember particularly hearing the tone of the person doing the filming, when he realised that he had been abandoned, and would have to sail the TI back home by himself....

Another observation is that in my opinion, metal pins should not be used. Hobie deliberately uses sacrificial plastic brace pins, which are designed to break instead of more expensive (and crucial) parts like akas and amas. There are many examples where "keep out lines" are fitted, running diagonally from the hull front cross beam out to the ama. These, especially if stretchy line is used, will allow for a brace pin to break without the ama immediately flying in towards the hull, usually leading to an instant capsize. I would not take my TI out in any strong weather without these safety lines connected.

Should a pin break, the akas will swing back a few degrees, letting you know of the breakage, with no other serious consequences. A new pin can then be fitted and normal sailing can resume. If you have these fitted to your hull, it would not matter whose akas you fit, as the lines will work anyway.

It is also documented elsewhere in the forum, that doubling the bungees on pre 2015 models is a good ideas, and even more beneficial is to add dyeema safety straps, so an ama can never separate from an aka, even if the bungees are disconnected or broken. Cheap insurance...

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:06 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:52 pm
Posts: 26
Hi;
Thanks for the comments...This is the way to learn and improve our sailing skills, as here now considering the most important Safety.
Tony...
Friendship steel ok and all the group learning from our mistakes...The other Ti´s did not understand way we taking a lot of time and not furling the half sail out (main rope was catch under and unable to liberate (unable to dive). Doing the same in good weather is a very different story...
As mention there are positive and negative points in using metal pins stead, we using both and no always at the same time. it depend; not the same if you are sailing alone, closed to home or closed to a friendly coast, current, etc. let me say something about the diagonal ropes from bow: ropes need to have the perfect tension, independently from port and starboard and need to be released easily in the event of capsize. Sometime we are not fitting those ropes properly.
If you encounter bad weather like that, with metal pin you have 20% to brake may be; with plastic let´s say 50%. Consider also that replaced the pin as we did is such a weather was not easy at all.
Another thing we learn was to fit two safety lines along the beam. To be use in helping to upright the boat or just to tie yourself with the safety harness.
Same of us using double bangees, some us me using a knot on the bangee to increase the strength. But the dyneema rope is a good option; Iwil do it...THANKS.

fusionneng...
Thanks for another lesson...Whistle or radio just in case...
And also you are right; we always tent to asume we are stronger and able to do it without help.
I can tell that, that day, water was warm at least but after replacing the pin, the second and successful attempt was our last attempt. For more attempts exterior help would be needed for sure as unable to jump back to the Ti.

Bob...
Thanks again. We used to carry some ropes also but no so long. i will considering extending the length...
See the lines mention before...https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN6OkSOut9bgegfbLlPUWDygSWKUXcm4Q1wM0kL

Saludos desde Abisal12...
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:29 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2498
Location: Central Florida
The url to the picture does not work for me. Maybe not public?

_________________
Image
Hobie Island Sailing since 2006


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:09 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:52 pm
Posts: 26
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:10 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:52 pm
Posts: 26
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1In4YGd_qMoik1a6lXgH_y53JnkUQLJPDEg/view?usp=sharing

now?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:17 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2498
Location: Central Florida
alarcas wrote:
This link works.

The idea behind the Throw-Rope Bags, is it is compact, contained (less tangle), and that you can throw a line from a safer distance to another boat or swimmer for rescue.

_________________
Image
Hobie Island Sailing since 2006


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:04 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:11 pm
Posts: 57
Location: North Jersey/NYC
After seeing a video Hobie posted on how to right a TI, I decided when the time will come, I want to be ready. For that purpose I wrapped a rope around the amas carrying handles. All I need to do is to unhook a small carabiner and unwrap the cord to get going.
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group