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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:26 am 
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RandomJoe wrote:
Chekika wrote:
No, that can't be correct. In the lowest configuration of the AI 2 Vantage CT seat, I measure 2.5" above the center hatch cover to the mesh seat--the mesh seat is essentially level in this configuration. The AI 2 hatch cover is 1 3/8" above that in the AI. So, with no one in the seat, the AI 2 Vantage seat is about 4" above the center hatch cover of the AI. Lower the AI seat further because of the "bowl" configuration, and the AI 2 Vantage seat would average >4" higher than the regular seat on the AI. In its highest position, the AI 2 Vantage seat would be >7" above the AI seat.


Hobie's claim (at least Matt mentioned this a few times) was that they lowered the floor to keep the new seat height the same as the old seat. You might compare the depth from deck to bottom of hull on your two and see if that makes up the difference. Yes, the "floor" below the AI 2 Vantage seat is lowered as much as 2". But, the AI 2 Vantage seat does not sit on the floor--it is well above the floor. (Probably so your butt does not sit in the water pooling on the floor.) I'm measuring the seat height from a common point in each boat, the center hatch cover. From the hatch cover to the Vantage mesh seat is 2.5". Add that to the fact the hatch cover on the AI 2 is 1 3/8" higher than the AI, and you have an AI 2 Vantage seat about 4" above the AI seat. Further, add that the AI seat drops down into a bowl, and the difference becomes greater. So, if Matt is saying they are the same, he should go out in the shop and measure them.

Finally, think about it, everything about the AI 2 is higher than the AI--the bow, the combing around the cockpit, the 3 hatch covers, the ridge at the stern, the mast, everything. Why would the designers then make the seat height in the AI 2 the same as the AI? Just does not make any sense. They didn't, so that we could have a dryer ride.


Keith

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:06 pm 
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Yes that makes sense Keith. Seat height is not an issue on the Islands.
But it is an issue in kayak mode and that is what I am most disappointed about with the '15 AI.
It doesn't look as if it would perform well as a kayak. :cry:
It is too bulky, heavy (especially with the built in centreboard) and now it looks too top heavy with the raised seat.

What was possibly the most versatile craft available is no more?

I have no intention of upgrading my AI. I will downgrade to a Revo16 and use the TI for our sailing adventures. I am very happy the DB remains on the Revo16 so that I can still kayak sail but I'm concerned the new seats won't allow hiking out?

I will be extremely disappointed if the '15 TI has the same seat height issues that make it it too top heavy to use as a kayak. If it does I won't be upgrading anything.


Last edited by stringy on Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:28 pm 
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Stringy, I reckon you're making a few assumptions that might prove wrong. I was pleasantly surprised how little difference to stability the highest seating position on the Revo 13 made. I reckon the new AI will perform fine in kayak mode, regardless of seat height. It will be heavier, but I doubt it's going to be overly detrimental to its performance. Most of that extra weight will be low in the hull, so I think that might help counter the seat height a little as well. And the TI hull is so incredibly stable on its own its hard to imagine seat height being an issue for it. I can comfortably walk from end of that thing to the other (without any amas).

In any case, the new design AI was always going to mean compromise somewhere when higher sailing performance was the mission objective. The fact is that most people that buy islands these days are in it for the sailing more so than the kayaking and Hobie have just responded to that. For those of us keen for higher sailing performance, a sacrifice in kayaking performance is expected and acceptable. And for those who prefer the old one, its a buyers market for those right now, and will be a while

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:28 pm 
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On all previous images I have seen of the 2015 AI, the furling cam cleat is much closer to the the main sheet cam cleat.
In your video Keith, it seems that they have moved it back closer to the mast (as in the previous models)
I would have thought that it would be better to be further away from the mast, so the furling line doesn't get tangled with your feet.
Looks like I will be changing the control lines as I did with my old AI.
The following picture is from my old 2013 AI.
Image

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:03 pm 
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Yeah, it would've made sense to move the furling cleat - as it stands it's still gets in the way of the pedals.

I would've went with the above mod if I didn't have rod-holders mounted in that spot.

I also think the pre-2015 rear well is a better design. My old Revo had the same rear-well/deck area as the new A.I.
(looks to me like they used the same mould! :-) ) and having the bungee cleats outdoor was a constant niggle -
when trolling lines would often get snagged between the cleat and the bungee.

If you have a problem using the rear-bungee to tie-down things in the well, there's a very simple mod you can do -
simply cut a small section out of some Hobie screw-in pad-eyes, round off the end and you have a near-perfect
(and very strong - I can lift the entire A.I. hull on four of these!) way of making sure the bungees hold better:

Image

Cheers,

Mike.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:08 pm 
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I suspect 95% of the AI/TI owners out there will likely never go out in kayak mode. Personally I feel the tI is the fastest and best kayak Hobie makes, but to be perfectly honest I seldom use it just as a kayak and suspect pretty much everyone else does the same, but it sure is nice to know I can still use my TI as a kayak if the need arises. We tend to go mostly in big water (salt water) anymore and tend to travel great distances and have gotten away from our kayaking roots, I have no idea if this is good or bad, but what we have (TI) fits our preferred lifestyle very well. From where I sit (pun) the more comfortable seat is big plus.
Bob


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:18 am 
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Hogman wrote:
On all previous images I have seen of the 2015 AI, the furling cam cleat is much closer to the the main sheet cam cleat.
In your video Keith, it seems that they have moved it back closer to the mast (as in the previous models)
I would have thought that it would be better to be further away from the mast, so the furling line doesn't get tangled with your feet.
Looks like I will be changing the control lines as I did with my old AI.
The following picture is from my old 2013 AI.
Image

Very nice setup, Hogman.

Regarding the rear well storage, the new design does a couple things: (1) the slanted hatch opening sheds more water with less leakage thru cover--important in rough seas, (2) more inside storage thru the back hatch with less chance to tangle or abrade lines, (3) the over the side cleats make for more solid bungee attachment (although, I will likely replace them with screw-in padeyes). I believe the tandem has the same design, and my tandem friends have not complained. On our recent, week-trip along coastal everglades, the Turners carried a large cooler back there.

@Fusioneng--I see from the Classifieds that you are planning to upgrade to the 2015 Tandem. Makes sense. The original AI was designed to be a very versatile boat. The AI 2 is simply responding to demand, I think. Better sailing experience and less "kayaking." As I mentioned earlier, I haven't used my AI in the kayak-mode for 2 yrs. Getting old, I guess, besides we have 2 beautiful, "real" sea kayaks (Current Designs Nomad) which I'm planning to sell. I knew when I got my first AI, my kayaking days were ending.

Keith

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:57 am 
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Keith:
That's funny how we change over time, were mostly kayakers who liked kayak sailing for many years, before getting our first TI. We sold most of our kayaks after getting the ti but hung on to my wife's revo which she loved for three more years, but during that time it was only used twice so we ended up selling that. Last time we used the TI in kayak mode was at crystal river a couple years ago where we went out the first day in the TI kayak (we left the sails and AMA's at the hotel). It was a little windy and choppy and we just couldn't go very far (crystal river is about 5 miles inland from the gulf and very large. When we went out the next day she insisted we take the whole rig (sails, AMA's, motor, etc), we took our scuba gear and had an absolute blast diving the springs. That was the last time we used a kayak, it's funny how people change over time I guess.
Bob


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:05 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Keith:
... That was the last time we used a kayak, it's funny how people change over time I guess.
Bob

Yes, I think it is great we change. Life would be dull if we didn't...and, aging forces change on you--I'm living proof.

Keith

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:09 pm 
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Yakass wrote:
Stringy, I reckon you're making a few assumptions that might prove wrong. I was pleasantly surprised how little difference to stability the highest seating position on the Revo 13 made. I reckon the new AI will perform fine in kayak mode, regardless of seat height. It will be heavier, but I doubt it's going to be overly detrimental to its performance. Most of that extra weight will be low in the hull, so I think that might help counter the seat height a little as well. And the TI hull is so incredibly stable on its own its hard to imagine seat height being an issue for it. I can comfortably walk from end of that thing to the other (without any amas).

In any case, the new design AI was always going to mean compromise somewhere when higher sailing performance was the mission objective. The fact is that most people that buy islands these days are in it for the sailing more so than the kayaking and Hobie have just responded to that. For those of us keen for higher sailing performance, a sacrifice in kayaking performance is expected and acceptable. And for those who prefer the old one, its a buyers market for those right now, and will be a while


You could well be right Yakass. I hope what I've assumed is wrong. Re-reading my post it is a bit strong to go off assumptions so I've edited it slightly. What shocked me was Keith's seat height statement. A 4" higher seat in the old AI would have made it very unstable in kayak mode.
I hope someone with a '15 AI can report back on it's capability as a kayak.
I'll start another thread on the '15 upgrades in the hope of getting some good feedback.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:52 am 
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AI 2 Physical Characteristics. Part 2.


Today I pulled a long piece of foam out of the front hatch. It stretched from the mast braces to beyond the middle hatch.

Image

Image


That amount of foam takes up the space equivalent of two 10-liter dry bags and a chair—I can’t afford to waste that space.

Image


I like the very deep Mirage Drive well—6” deep with an alignment slot. That will eliminate a lot of aggravation due to accidental release of the Drive latches. Nice.

Image


This shows my add-on handles (not installed yet.)

Image


Next I examined the seat, or, more specifically, the space under the seat. As long as the AI 2 is used as a trimaran, as it is designed, there is no reason to use the seat in anything but its highest configuration. That means (1) there is more leg room, (2) it is easier to relieve one’s self while sailing, and (3) there is considerable room under the seat. I would guess you could slip eight to twelve 17-oz Gatorade bottles under the seat. This image also shows a small clothing bag stowed under the front of the seat.

Image


Here is a 10-liter dry bag with anorak, gloves, and other foul weather gear stowed under the front of the seat. Having serious foul weather gear handy on long trips is very important.

Image


Finally, the rear storage area. Here I’m showing how I will be packing this location with a large dry bag (holds my kitchen bag, sleeping bag, inflatable mattress, and lots of small personal items), cooler, and dry bag containing my tent. Even with all this gear, the stern of my AI 2 should stay high—with my AI in rough seas, this area was often flooded—how do I know? On a recent trip in my AI with fierce winds, my 14” high cooler had 1-2” of sea water in it every day. This water HAD to come in through the top of the cooler.

Image


I’m going to like this new AI 2 for camping, IF I CAN HAUL IT UP AND DOWN BEACHES. That test is yet to come.

Keith

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:00 am 
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Hi Keith great thread mate, I'm really enjoying the pics and details of your new AI. The piece of foam, any idea what its for? Surely not bouyancy?.

Thanks

Roller

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:50 am 
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Yes, Roller, definitely buoyancy.

Keith

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:08 am 
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Roller:
I may be mistaken but I believe there is some sort of CE rule on positive flotation for all boats and kayaks sold in Europe. Since Hobies products are distributed world wide, I believe the flotation foam was added for compliance to these laws, making the kayaks Un sink able even if completely flooded. Personally I won't be removing the positive floation foam from my hull, I consider it to be a good thing.
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:16 am 
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Bob! With all the extra weight you put on your boats, they definitely need all the floatation they can get. You should foam the whole inside of your hull! Definitely!

I'm the one who, through my own fault, flooded my 2011 AI and still sailed a mile to shore. It had plenty of floatation--I removed a chunk of foam from that AI also, when it became tangled in the lines.

Keith

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