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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:24 pm 
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Keith:
I also use a lot of pool noodles (cool invention). Probably about the same cost as th PVC bunks (pve is really cheap), and the pool noodle fix looks way easier and faster and hey if it works go for it.
However i'm now no longer jealous of your trailer, as now it's starting to look like mine (just kidding).
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:00 am 
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Night Sailing—Tricks & Tips

An interesting thread on the WaterTribe forum has been running for the last few days. It entitled, “Danger, Hints, Tricks, of Night Sailing.” I thought it was of sufficient interest that I’ve posted it here. Please realize that these posts are by WaterTribers who have done the Everglades Challenge at least once and many have done it multiple times. Some posters (KiwiBird, Cwolfe, and maybe others) are kayakers. The Challenge almost requires that a participant paddle or sail at night. Their advice here is quite valuable to persons who might want to do the Everglades Challenge or simply sail at night, by design or by accident. The original thread can be found at http://watertribe.org/forums/topic/danger-hints-tricks-of-night-sailing#post_content_anchor

Karank wrote:
When I was still a pre teen, my father taught me how to sail at night and the dangers and how to mitigate them. Means and methods have changed from those days but not the danger. What are your methods, tricks and rules?


Badger wrote:
Reef before dark. Dress warmer than you think necessary. Have extra flashlights and batteries stored in an easy location. Look out for docks that like to jump out at you...they become mischievous after dark!


NorthernLight wrote:
The squirrels are not real.

Also, we find that between approximately 0100 and 0500 we do dumb things and make bad decisions. The big change we made between our DNF in 2011 and our finish in 2012 was to be off the water during those hours regardless of where we were on the course. We are fortunate to have a boat that allows us to do that, but I do think this is the reason to choose an "expedition worthy" craft. You never know when you'll have to spend some time communing with those croc-a-gators.

Also, Macatawa is a detail oriented navigator with several route choices and "don't go here" areas well marked on chart and GPS. I tell him his secret guide to camp spots could make him his millions someday.

Ditto to having a good bright light and knowing where the batteries are and a favorite warm hat.


mistermoon wrote:
Night sailing is one of my favorite parts of these challenges. It's often wonderful except for those moments of terror that can come up unexpectedly.

Change into your warm clothes and foulies before dark. As soon as the sun goes down, you will get heavy condensation on every surface including your clothes. Because of all this dampness, it will seem a lot colder than it really is. I have frozen my tail off in 62 degrees at night in the EC.

2) Check the weather before it gets dark. Better not to have surprise front in the middle of the night. Reef if necessary. Review your plans A, B, and C in case it gets rough.

3) have a couple of headlamps ready to go. Have a strong flashlight or spotlight ready to go. Find the unlit markers on your chart before you run into them as they are hard on your sails.

4) Boil some water, have hot drinks ready to go. Eat a good supper before dark. Put some snacks in your pockets for later.

5) New batteries in the GPS. Know what is the compass course to your next waypoint. If there are stars, pick out one that corresponds to your compass course and steer toward it. The stars move over time, so you should recheck every 20-30 minutes and adjust as necessary.

6) Tidy up the boat. Tie down or stow loose gear you got out during the day.

7) Stay alert. One thing I find that helps keep me from dozing is to chew gum or suck on hard candy.


BeastOarman wrote:
Great thread, I have learned to love nighttime on the water as a direct result of practicing for Challenges.

I am much more cautious about conditions in the dark, obviously, and would not intentionally go out in slop. In 2013 when it got nasty day 2 as the sun was setting at Sanibel, I headed inside and took the longer route. In 2014 going outside after Chokoloskee, I was sure to have some ditch campsites for my nighttime trek to Ponce de Leon.

As for tips, I have no problem staying awake until about 3 or so. Probably the excitement. At that point, I need something - instant Starbucks in cold water sufficed just fine. Like MM, lots of snacks within reach - crossing Florida Bay via Dragover is a long time with no place to stop for dinner.

Another thing that bailed me out is my iPad. Got a bit disoriented once, and being able to see my position in the context of a larger map than the GPS was a big help.


Karank wrote:
Lots of good information in above. One of the things that still create confusion.... for me... is approaching a populated area with a lots of lights.... thousands of unknown lights all over the horizon. You cannot tell if they are moving or important or just street lights or a big boat about to run over you or how far away they are? I feel panic. What I have to remind myself is that with some time and less distance, whether they are moving or not in relation to the others will eventually define what and how far, they are. I am not going to say stand up in a small boat but a little altitude will quickly define which ones are close and need to be watched more carefully.

Two classifications of light are more of a threat... moving fast, and or getting closer and brighter. Then colors rise in importance. A moving Red or Green are really important and should be watched closely where they are moving. A Red & Green side by side not moving and getting really close identifies panic time. Scream like a baby and take a big breath! I will not say shine the brightest light you have in their eyes but that is exactly what I will and have done. That is the only way to get through the Champagne bottle.


Iszatarock wrote:
Waving a flashlight side-to-side is a good way to be sure it is seen and doesn't blind.


Cwolfe wrote:
One of the nighttime illusions is distance. The big tall buildings along the coast can appear quite close at night. I found my elf paddling several miles off shore.... far further than was necessary.

The other nighttime phenomenon that is exacerbated by sleep deprivation is that of relative motion. Paddling on the outside route of the Everglades at night without good points of reference has given me the illusion that I am paddling in place or the illusion of going backwards while in perfectly calm water. Definitely disturbing sensation but once you start to come to grips with it the experience can be a little entertaining. Definitely a trip into the weirdness of the mind. A little delirium training.
Cwolfe


ZeroTheHero wrote:
interesting thread.

I grew up sailing big boats all over the upper east coast. From CT to Newfoundland. Lots of night passages. I guess I am used to it but I still get the willies just before a challenge. Small boats face different issues. In the '13 race GreenMountainGal and I avoided night sailing as much as possible, but we did do a little. Mostly down off the Everglades. Down there isn't much to hit and the glow of Miami makes a horizon.

In '14 Per and went all night. We left CP1 in the dark and I'll tell ya getting back to the open Gulf was no picnic. Almost ran into shore twice. Add in a few power boats and a bit of current and it was tough. Then out in the Gulf we just put the hammer down and sailed. Crossing outside of Gasparilla was lumpy and very interesting. I went about 3 mile off shore and was still inside the outer markers when I decided to turn more south and get across.
So what are my tricks.

First, I do everything MisterMoon said. He was my unofficial coach before the '13 event and everything he said is true. I followed all his points religiously and they never let me down. go back up to his post and put it all to heart.

Another trick I do is I put the gps in its waterproof bag with lanyard, around my neck. I turn the screen brightness down a bit so it isn't blinding. In places where it is busy and there are lots of issues I may check it as often as every minute. I use it like a chart plotter.

I also keep a very keen eye out. If there are lights reflecting on the water I try to use that to my advantage. I look for objects, wind ripples, wake/waves in those reflections.

I avoid using the flashlight if at all possible. I have a red lens on my head lamp and use that if at all. Red doesn't kill your night vision. Our family boat had a red setting on every interior light. Green is no good, red is what you need. I don't flash light up the mast to check sails much at all. I go by speed. In the lightning we were doing 6ish knots through the water at night and that was just fine. So what if the backstay needed a bit more to give us another 1/16 of a knot? Vision is much better overall.

Both boats I sailed had bow lights. They reflect off the water out a few feet in front. Doesn't give you loads of time at speed but at a very minimum I could see the next wave a sec or 2 before it hit. I like off shore if possible. Less people, less debris, cleaner view.

Two other quick things.
1. I have an ace in the hole I have never used on a Challenge but I am going to play with it this summer. I have an old Soviet night vision scope. It is crap for fine work, but going into or out a pass I think it might be great.
2. Home depot is selling a thermal camera for an iPhone. it's $250 bucks and I am tempted to go for it. It can't be used with a waterproof case like a Lifeproof, but the phone could be in a bag. I wonder if it would pick up pilings, sand, etc. from leftover heat from the day.
http://www.flir.com/flirone/

Here is $239 one which connects to Android devices.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=seek+thermal&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=36275928158&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15880072278743299216&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_4wgrhsz4kb_b


Karank wrote:
Coastie, thank you for your service and generosity. The only night light sources on a CG Ship at night... is RED. Now for something that was very important to my Father that I can "not" recommend but it was very important to him. "Night Vision" takes a long time to gain or recover.... hours to some degree... so that any light source will interfere and reduce it, instantly. Even red light will significantly diminish that "night sight". He learned the water in the 20's when Edison was still a boy (ha) and very little artificial light was around except in Cities. He would not allow light, any light, when loading and preparing to go out on the water. That gave us an almost daylight vision even with no moon. He would only turn on running lights when someone was approaching or when he lost that "night vision". Now half of the things on our boats have a light source. Keep it in mind when you pass Cape Romano... but obey the law and survive. Yeah, I love my gps and must look at it but I know that I will not see as well again for 30 min. or more.


seabag wrote:
I like the GPS but kind of use it like a snorkel. Pop it on from time to time. Been using a lighted compass, various ways of subdued lighting for some of the kayak compasses ranging from a small red cyalume under it to an led with a waterproof battery container, or the Seattle Sports compass with a built in light. You can use something as dim as a cyalume to look at your chart. You only need the gps once an hour or so if you are off shore. It would be harder in the thousand islands.


I carry a big waterproof flashlight, one of those pelicans to get people's attention. If I have to use my head lamp the night vision is indeed toast for a while.


Coastie wrote:
This year we were very fortunate to have a full moon or close to it. It makes a world of difference during our night time transit. I got excited 6 months ago when I checked the lunar phase calendar, and realized we would be sailing with the moon this year!

In our Coastie and ClamCounter trip report we mentioned the effect of sleep, or lack of sleep. This year we successfully identified the "uncharted red light" that we tacked around for several hours last year. We had been sailing for 48 or so hours. This year we were only up for 24 or so hours. The mysterious light was a red light marking power lines.....5 miles away...on the shoreline of the Keys

With a two man team, it certainly is easier in the ICW at night. ClamCounter (who can see better on little electronic things) follows the Garmin GPS, and I follow the standard old waterproof paper charts. We have a West Marine spot light, but I prefer the old standard long mag light for identifying unlit day boards. But as mentioned previously....night vision will be trashed in a moment by the light....so I ensure ClamCounter (who is the real sailboat expert on the tiller) knows when, or if, I turn it on.

Our headlamps, in addition to white and red, have a blue lens. I try to use it (but as I said.....I can't see very well at times, so I find myself turning the white one on often to see the chart). In my later years aboard cutters, the blue light had replaced the red light at the navigation chart table and in Combat Information Center.

Reviewing your charts for navigation aids (before it gets dark) is really essential....and knowing the characteristics of the next lighted buoy/dayboard. If it is listed as flashing 4s (4 seconds), an easy way to verify is to count one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three, one thousand four after the light goes off...it should than flash on. Just my simple way of checking. Also ensure you know if there is a corresponding/paired "unlit" dayboard/marker. It really will ruin your day to avoid the beautiful flashing dayboard....and then crash into the unlit one.


KiwiBird wrote:
Paddling at night in a kayak can be quite sublime, and I feel one of the highlights of an EC, particularly when paddling solo.

At least we don't get too much cooler as we're still paddling hard.

For the first time this year I had a wee set of red and green nav lights looped on to the side of my boat, especially for Lemon Bay and onward past CP1. A couple of times I've had boats speeding past, and even with a headlamp on my sail or direct at them, I've been cussed at. This year a boat went past and I could hear them in the dark commenting "cool nav lights."
KB


Karank wrote:
KB Correct, Red and Green side lights are infinitely more informative than any other lighting scheme. They provide depth perception and resolve any question about what the viewer sees. One should not leave the dock/beach without them. LED has resolved all problems with boat lighting. You can do an entire challenge without turning them off and still have lights at Key Largo. I have some Duckworks lights that will do that and have lasted several years and many uses. I just turn them on when I leave the beach. Of course I have to replace batteries...before the event... Ha


seabag wrote:
The Brit sea kayak navigators are big on grease pencils and a white surface on which to write. I've found this really helpful at night: write out your predicted course and distances, maybe predicted turning marks or landmarks in nice big easily read letters. Flicking on the GPS becomes backup to the dimly lit compass, and the watch with luminous hands.


DonKeyHoTey wrote:
Great comments. I love sailing at night, and do a fair bit of it, as it makes me (forces me to be) much more aware of my surroundings. Even the most mundane places to sail in daytime become "interesting" ;) If sailing in urbanized areas as I usually am, here in SE FL, the myriad lights on the horizon can easily hide an approaching vessel's red & green bow lights -- assuming they are even on. So I'm hyper-vigilant, particularly in busy waterways like the ICW.

I need to remember that not only are other boats harder to see for me, but vice-versa as well. So I am constantly scanning the horizon -- including behind any sails that might be obscuring my view.

If in doubt about my visibility to an approaching vessel, I shine a light on my sails early and remain ready to shine a bright torch directly into their eyes. Of course it's hell on my night vision, but better than being turned into chum.

Comments about prepping everything before dark can't be emphasized strongly enough. It's so much harder to find or sort out something (like a knotted halyard) by feel, and turning on your flashlight for this purpose is not only a poor substitute for daylight, but also has the vision consequences, and may tie up one hand that's much needed for the task.

Finally, as ZTH commented, being able to sail by "feel" is important at night, and doing a fair amount of night-sailing enhances the ability to know when the boat is trimmed properly and powered up without having to put a light on the tell-tales -- useful even in broad daylight.

DKHT

PS: obviously I don't drink alcohol during an event like the EC, but even just casual night-sailing, I don't consume alcohol -- but do assume that the other guy is doing so.


DonKeyHoTey wrote:
One more comment: ZTH reminds me of all the night sailing I did before GPS -- and how my GPS failed me even in the last week or was effectively illegible.

Even the most familiar waters become unfamiliar at night. And distances of lights, land, vessels, etc, can be very difficult to estimate. Trying to figure out where I am on the chart when looking at a bunch of flashing lights can be damn near impossible -- so I make sure I plot my position frequently and correlate what I'm looking at on the horizon with what I see on the chart.

DKHT


SailBirdMike wrote:
I've always loved sailing at night... set the sail plan conservatively, dress warmly, have coffee, water, and warm food prepared and ready before the sun goes down, and then - enjoy the galaxy as it unfolds above me. Honestly, I prefer night sailing over day sailing, most especially in the warmer months, when the phosphorescence fights with the stars and moon for my attention and appreciation.

But you also have to know where you are going, and really familiarize yourself with your charts, and the lights you will see at night. Even with study, Lemon Bay scrambled my brain with its multitude of lights, both navigation, shore, and marine construction, during the 2014 Challenge*. You will NOT have accurate depth/distance perception at night, so be prepared to be confused by what you see. Follow your GPS/chart plotter/charts, but do NOT bury your head in them. Keep snacks handy, and bounce between carbs, proteins, and fats (in small proportions) until you find the right balance and tune to run with on that particular night. I also like to keep some dried wasabi peas handy - they can wake you up faster than coffee! Oh, and welcoming the sunrise with a little airline bottle of Baileys in your coffee is a welcome reward for a successful night sail. Or so I've been told...

*embarrassing full disclosure - I had pretty much ruled out the ICW route, so I did not study that run as thoroughly as I should have. Lesson learned - pick the route you least want to take, and learn it WELL!


Lots of excellent advice.

Keith

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:51 am 
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A Great read!

Thanks Keith

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:30 am 
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Chokoloskee to Pavilion, Mar 27-30, 2015 Leisure trip of the year

Fish, sail, paddle—all fun. This trip is over a weekend, so we can have everyone out. WaterTribers can come out to tell their stories about the EC2015. You can attend any of the 4 days. On Fri, launch 10:30-11 am out of Chokoloskee, or on Sat, 12:30-1 pm. You can return, with a nice ride thru the passes, if you leave PAV about 9 am on Sun or 10 am on Mon.

Currently planning to attend: Royd Whedon, Maria & Steve Sanders, the Joeys (Joe Slama & Joe Cianciolo), Denise Parris & Josh Bowers plus 2 guests, Don Haynes & Dianne, and me.

If you plan to attend, please let me know as soon as possible. I will be picking up the permit, unless someone is over at Everglades City earlier than me.

Keith

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:00 pm 
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AI 2 Physical Characteristics. Part 4. Miscellaneous—read’em and weep (or perhaps, rejoice)


I finally got back to doing something with my AI 2 today. First, I loaded it (the hull) onto my modified trailer—see the link viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=660 Scroll through that page to see the problem and my pool noodle temp solution. I then assembled the akas & amas—that went fine, and it will probably transport long distances (>100 mi) w/o problem. I thought this was successful—I’m rejoicing.

Regarding the length of the amas when folded back, it seems I recently saw somewhere that someone said they extended well beyond the rudder. So, I was interested to see if this was so, because I had done a rough measurement and found mine did not seem to extend beyond the rudder. Today, I took a couple of pictures and here they are.

Image

Image


The amas on my AI 2, when folded back, are slightly shorter than the back edge of the vertical rudder.

I used my pool noodle rollers to move my hull around in the drive-way. They worked fine for that, but it is not a real test, like hauling my boat 3-4’ above the high tide line. Still, they seem to work. I can rejoice about that.

Now, the next part is the tough part. Probably not going to rejoice here, but that may be open to discussion. I weighed my boat today—disassembled. Here are the results:

Amas—both weighed in at exactly 20# each (I did weight one of my 2011 amas—14.8#)
Akas—all four weighed 13.0# total.
Mast & sail—11.4#
Hull—104# including the Vantage chair (edit: forget the front hatch cover; almost 2#. Therefore, the hull is 106#).

Add it up: 2x20# + 13.0# + 11.4# + 106# = 170#.

The result is for my boat with mast/sail only. I used my bathroom scale. It matches the one I have in northern NM, but neither has been calibrated by the Bureau of Weights & Measures (does that exist anymore?)

170#—Wow, that is much more than the published value (142#.) Sure can’t be rejoicing about that, but, I did move it around today by myself, even if it was in parts.

Hopefully, others will get their AI 2 weighed for comparison.

Keith

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Last edited by Chekika on Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:24 pm 
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That sure is one hell of a weight increase Keith. There are comments about how much faster the AI2 is over the AI1. With that weight increase, it would be interesting to drop the AI2's mast/sail into the AI1's hull and see how the old girl performs then. ( does it retrofit ? )

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:17 pm 
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Thanks for the info Keith... Interesting weights.

Are you sure you weighed all the AKAS together? :-)

Here's a quick comparison between the 2015 A.I. and my early model:

Could you weigh the seat separately? I'm interested to see how much it is
compared to my skipper seat retro-fit (which weighs in at 3.5kg):

2012 A.I.
---------
Hull = 38.4kg
AMAS = 14.1kg
AKAS = 7.3kg
Mast/Sail = 4.8kg
Mirage Drive = 3.2kg
Seat = 1.3kg

2015 A.I.
---------
Hull = 47.3kg
AMAS = 18.2kg
AKAS = 5.9kg
Mast/Sail = 5.2kg
Mirage Drive = ?
Seat = ?

Cheers,

Mike.

<edit> Curse this forum software - how the heck do you format a table, simply & quickly?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:25 pm 
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Slaughter wrote:
That sure is one hell of a weight increase Keith. There are comments about how much faster the AI2 is over the AI1. With that weight increase, it would be interesting to drop the AI2's mast/sail into the AI1's hull and see how the old girl performs then. ( does it retrofit ? )


It's a fat lump, to be sure. The proof of the pudding will be getting a 2015 A.I. side-by-side with a pre-2015 model
and then have a race. That way you get the same conditions at the same time. I'd expect the new A.I. to be a
bit quicker due to the increased sail area and buoyancy, even with the added weight and displacement.

Mike.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:37 pm 
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Mingle, no matter how you cut it, we are pretty close together: about 171# +/- 1#. That is pretty amazing and firms up that the AI 2 is much heavier than Hobie has published (142#). I suppose they didn't want people to be really upset about the weight.

Can't weigh the seat tonight--got to go to bed.

Keith

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:38 pm 
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Looks like another specifications TYPO Keith! :wink:
:lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:52 pm 
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Quote:
It's a fat lump, to be sure. The proof of the pudding will be getting a 2015 A.I. side-by-side with a pre-2015 model and then have a race.


After having sailed the new AI, let me assure you, it will be faster in almost all scenarios but will be most noticeable the rougher it gets. There are lots of reasons for this - it's not just the size of the sail, but equally so the shape of the boat and how it sits on the water. However, pedaling in kayak mode I anticipate the original AI hull will be faster, but not by a whole lot. Either way, me thinks the new AI will be a bit too heavy for a small car with soft racks (although the Solution soft rack from Sea-to-Summit is pretty good at eliminating a caved in rood due to its design).

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:13 am 
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Yep, there's no way I would attempt to fit one on top of my little hatchback!

I hope (...against hope) that some time in the future Hobie bring out a "mini-A.I."
something about the size of the Revo 13, with a 'proper' mast/sail and outrigger
setup like the 2015 A.I. If the weight comes in at around 50kg fully rigged I'd
be as happy as pig in the proverbial...

In the meantime I've just spent (wasted?) an hour of my time checking out my
GPS stats since I've had the A.I.

I bought my 2012 model A.I. in December 2012 and in the following 27 months
have been out 32 times, for a total 'on-the-water' distance of 638.4km with
an average distance of 19.95km per trip.

Here's the kicker though - in all of that time only 40% of the distance covered
has been under sail! I can't say I remember pedalling that much, but the stats
don't lie - I've pushed my A.I. over 383kms - now I know why my thighs are
so beefy! :-)

Cheers,

Mike.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:22 am 
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I've tried weighing large suitcases and a few other large items on bathroom scales Keith, rarely have my readings been accurate, I'd doubt Hobie have lost 28 lb in there weighing. You really need a gantry scale

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:13 am 
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Thank you all for the info about the actual weight!

As Hobie states, the very excact figure is 64,41 kg (142lb), that is just a conversion from 142lb, but it looks a little bit odd.
Hobie also states this:
"Includes the Fitted Hull Weight, plus all other standard features that are removable, e.g. MirageDrive, seat, paddles, gear bucket, water bottle, cassette plug. PA (removable liner), Islands (sail, amas, akas, daggerboard)."

Probably they are also as much wrong about the weight for the older AI.
What is really interesting is difference between the older and newer 2015 version.
I have now seen the Beast IRL and could confirm that the 2015 is really a new craft.
I don't mind the handling at transport, these problem can easily be solved.
For me the big problem is handling this weight when launching and hauling at islands where I would like to camp.
When sailing this craft is probably everything we asked for.

A much better sailing craft than previous version.

best regards
thomas


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:28 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2996
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I used to work for a company that made bathroom scales (a company called Councelor), I was the Plant Engineer in charge of all factory operations. We developed many variations of bathroom scales.
With the typical bathroom scale in order to convert the downward force into rotary force (the dial), this required many hinge points, and mechanisms to get from point A to point B. In those days the main measurement was take from pulling on a calibrated spring (via many levers). Of course this was 40 yrs ago, but I don't think bathroom scales have changed much since or how they work.
I designed many of the springs and mechanisms they used, and the springs were not quite linear, as they had a sweet spot accuracy wise of between 100 and 200 lbs, and were only accurate with live weight. They actually had at the end of the assembly line a live person stand an each scale and weigh themselves. We had if I remember correctly 7 lines putting out about a million scales a day I can't imagine a more boring job ( lol).
Common cheap bathroom scales are of little use on dead weight, especially very little weight. The most accurate measurement can be achieved by standing on the scale (live weight), then picking up the object, and weigh yourself again, then subtract the difference (doing the same 3 times, then averaging the result). Or just use a certified scale like they use at the grocery (a completely different type of scale, that works on dead weight).
If you can't find a certified scale (like they use at the grocery) the next best thing would be to have two bathroom scales (one on each end of the hull only (no AMA's or AKA's, weigh them separately). One person on each end weighs them selves, then each pick up one end of the boat and weigh themselves again, then subtract the difference, then repeat, then switch places and repeat again, then average out the weight differences. Sounds like a pain in the butt to me, but the only way I know to get accurate weight information from cheap bathroom scales.
I would think with the rotomolding process, the total boat weight could vary +/- 5 to 10 lbs easily from boat to boat. Hopefully someone has access to certified scales, and can accurately measure, all these back yard measurements are not helping. I doubt very much Hobie is publishing inaccurate or deceptive information (that's just not their style). I'm sure if any of us measures ('accurately') our boats including whatever Hobie includes/not-includes in their own measurements we should all get fairly close results (plus or minus 10 lbs), but we can't be weighing apples and oranges here.
Personally I think everyone is putting way more into this weight thing, than it's worth (again just my opinion). My TI weighs around 200 lbs (without the motors (55lbs) though I have never attempted to actually weigh it (don't really care)), the next closest competitor boat is the Windrider 17 which has about the same sail configuration as my modified TI (about 260 sq ft of sail) and similar sailing characteristics. The WR 17 I think weighs in at over 400 lbs, and I know of nobody that has even attempted to car top a WR 17. In my opinion I'm way ahead of the curve (but thats just my opinion), this is why I love my TI. I think an H16 weighs in over 350 lbs. Thankfully I can car top my TI when I want to, I think we are still way ahead of the curve. What's a couple lbs among friends ( LOL)
Just my thoughts
Bob


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