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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:00 pm 
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Very ballsy of you to run that collapse test Keith. Thanks.

I think folks should consider that, in the right conditions, the Amas could always fold forward too, and precipitate a capsize. The bow lines won't prevent that.

Having Hakas on at the same time would make things pretty stable, or at least give you a little more reaction time. I would feel a lot more confident

BTW, has anyone considered screwing a padeye directly to the Aka arm instead of the plastic? This would provide a solid connection. (Fusion: Would a 45º line angle provide better resistance than those forward cleats?)

Great thread - and the seat leash mod is SOOOO logical, I can't believe Hobie missed it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:24 pm 
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Nohuhu:
I don't think the actual angle, or method used, or type of light line is important, many methods will work, I only wanted to explain the potential problem and at least one possible solution.
Bob


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:00 am 
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NOHUHU wrote:
Very ballsy of you to run that collapse test Keith. Thanks. It was an interesting test with a bit of trepidation initially. Today would be a great day to really test them--winds are supposed to be 17-20 mph, but I'm not sure I can get out.

I think folks should consider that, in the right conditions, the Amas could always fold forward too, and precipitate a capsize. The bow lines won't prevent that. My tension loaded "Keep Out" bow lines have the potential of pulling the amas forward; however, if the momentum of the boat is forward when an aka brace shear pin breaks, there will not be much danger of collapsing forward.

Having Hakas on at the same time would make things pretty stable, or at least give you a little more reaction time. I would feel a lot more confident I'm slowly working on a new set of hakas to fit the AI 2 new width between the akas (and the angulation, which I did not have on my 2011). They will definitely add some stability in case of broken aka brace shear pin. They may even take precedence over the Keep Out lines, although my aim is to NOT have a rigid aka/ama/hull system.

BTW, has anyone considered screwing a padeye directly to the Aka arm instead of the plastic? This would provide a solid connection. (Fusion: Would a 45º line angle provide better resistance than those forward cleats?)

Great thread - and the seat leash mod is SOOOO logical, I can't believe Hobie missed it. Hobie doesn't give people a leash for their Mirage Drive either...hmmm?

Keith

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:30 am 
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300 Mile Camping Trip--Jim Czarnowski’s 14 min video of his Unofficial Everglades Challenge

The 2015 Everglades Challenge was canceled this year at the end of the first day. Some of the competitors continued on doing their own Challenge. Many of those quit when they reached Chokoloskee (Checkpoint 2) or Flamingo (Checkpoint 3), but some continued to the Bay Cove finish in Key Largo. Jim Czarnowski, Hobie chief engineer, finished in Key Largo. Along the way, he used his iPhone to record a video of his trip. His first overnight was at Checkpoint 1 about 60 mi south of the start (Ft Desoto Part, south of St Petersburg, FL). His second was in Indian Key Pass near Chokoloskee, where he set up his hammock in the mangroves and had an unexpected exit. He spent a day on Pavilion Key because of very strong winds and waves, and then he did a 45 mi day down to Oyster Bay Chickee (I believe). To get to Oyster Bay Chickee in Whitewater Bay, he turned in at Ponce De Leon Bay, rather than go out around Cape Sable. Winds were quite strong. About the same time, 4 mi south of Cape Sable, Joe Slama (PainenDias) and partner DonKeyHoTey flipped their sail boat several times before putting up the white flag and calling for the Coast Guard. I've never gone through Whitewater Bay with my AI, although I have done it in a sea kayak. The problem with doing the EC via Whitewater Bay is (1) you must pedal 3.5 mi through Tarpon Channel and Buttonwood Canal to reach the Flamingo Marina, and (2) there is a 300 yd portage to get from freshwater back to saltwater and Florida Bay. Here is the Everglades National Park image from Chokoloskee to Flamingo.

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Whitewater Bay is the large water mass to the southeast of Ponce De Leon Bay and northeast of Cape Sable. At least when Jim got to Flamingo, he chanced to meet Pelican sailing his 2014 AI. He and Pelican went to the only Flamingo restaurant and had a real meal of deep fried gator chunks and French fries. After leaving Flamingo, they slogged the 35 mi across the east end of Florida Bay to Key Largo and the finish.

The video can be seen here.

If Hobie's link to YouTube does not work, so here is the direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOViGVntGfY



In the very beginning of the video, when leaving Ft Desoto Beach start line, Jim only uses his reacher sail. You can see how it lifts the whole bow and leeward ama of his 2015 AI (AI 2) off the water.

It is an interesting video.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Tue May 30, 2017 2:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:55 pm 
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Looks like Nick kept up just fine in his older AI.

I would be interested in seeing the speed track data for PGMan. Downwind and up.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:13 pm 
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Nick Hall was using Jim Czarnowski's 2014 AI. It had been retrofitted with a Vantage CT seat. When I asked Jim if it was easy to retro fit the new seat to the AI, he said, "No, we have to have some reason for people to buy the new boat."

I think it was more or less accidental that they met up in Flamingo. They were not traveling together, but they may have been aware of one another's position via their land support. I plan on posting some pictures of the 2015 Everglades Challenge start at Ft Desoto--when I get around to it. The WaterTribe Tracker for the EC is no longer available. I'm not sure it would have shown anything since it was all officially canceled at the end of the first day.

Next year should be a good year to follow the EC since there will be a number of AI 2s (2015 AI) competing.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:19 pm 
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It will be cool to see if they earn a Gator Tooth too.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:23 am 
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2015 Everglades Challenge--Island Images

The Everglades Challenge began Mar 7 and lasted one day before the Coast Guard suggested to Chief that it should be shut down because of the weather conditions and rescues performed. Chief had little choice and the race was ended almost before it started. Here are a few images of Hobie Islands that I collected Friday and Saturday, Mar 6-7. Out of the dozens of pictures I took, I thought these were noteworthy. They are for your perusal.

The first is of my friend, Bryan Tindell and his boat. The most interesting thing here is his vertical rudder (2011 or later) and his vintage akas/crossbar.

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One of Bryan's akas sheared at the connection during his personal EC.

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Perhaps the most unique hakas were Dockwater and Amabouy's haka pods.

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This boat has lots of mods. The lawn chair seat was the most unusual chair on all the Islands.

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This is Chief's AI 2. It was quite new at the time of the EC.

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My good friend, Royd, and his "lightly" loaded TI. Putting most of your gear in the front cockpit is certainly an advantage of using the TI for camping.

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This is another friend, John. John is a first-timer down from Detroit. I think he may be demonstrating the disadvantage of a TI for camping--too much gear! Hey, he's having the time of his life. Nothing to complain about.

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Note the righting lines attached to the Tandem handles, the 3rd drive, and reinforced pool noodles for moving the boat on shore. The righting lines may also be an aid to getting back in the boat.

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Here is an Island with KB's spray skirts shortened to expedition-style skirts. Note also the bungeed and cam-strapped haka.

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Cargo net on tramp for securing gear. Note, also, the 7' push pole fastened along the coaming on the port side of the boat.

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Spine board hakas and pretty comfy rear chair

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Butch from Hollywood, FL, has some serious additions to his tandem: here is his roll bar w/ rod holders and more. Very few people intend to fish during the EC.

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Butch also has a reacher sail (Jim Czarnowski, below, has a reacher sail).

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Nancy checking out Hobie chief engineer Jim Czarnowski's AI 2

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When Jim launched at the start (7 am, Saturday morning), he only had his reacher sail deployed.

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There were about 28 Islands in the 2015 EC. Here are some on the beach on Friday afternoon.

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At the unofficial finish in Key Largo, an Island family dinner

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Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:19 pm 
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Great photos. Great Hakas.

John packs like I do. :oops:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:02 am 
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Test of My Keep-out Lines—8 mph

I describe the simple construction of the keep-out lines here http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=720 Scroll up/down to locate the post.

This is the last test of my keep-out lines. As in my previous test, Biscayne Bay had lots of sea weed, but I expected it this time. Winds were about 15-16 mph with a lot of whitecaps around, but I only was able to do about 6.5 mph. I did a test at that speed. The test consists of releasing the leeward aka brace and videoing the result (assuming I'm still upright.) That test went fine, i.e., the keep-out line kept the aka/ama from collapsing, but I wanted more speed. I was having problems with weather helm (sail overpowering the rudder) with the full sail, so I reefed the sail about a turn. That definitely helped the weather helm, but the speed was about the same. At some point, since I was not using the Mirage Drive, I took that out and put in the plug. Wow! Suddenly I was doing 7.5-8 mph. Frankly, I was amazed. I suspect the fins had picked up a lot of sea weed, and it was slowing the boat. The change really was dramatic. I was now doing around 8 mph, and I did another keep-out line test. Here is the 1:21 min video.

During this clip, my aka brace has been released. Speed is 7.5-8 mph. Winds are 15-16 mph. Air temperature is 88-90 deg F; the water is warm. I’m sailing off Coral Gables with Coconut Grove and Miami on the horizon. It is a beautiful day, and the test is successful at keeping the aka/ama from collapsing with subsequent capsize. I’m very happy with these keep-out lines. Had they been deployed during my ill-fated camping trip last April, I believe they would have prevented my capsize.

If Hobie's link to YouTube videos does not seem to work. Here is the full link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgaWJUbl0dw




Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Tue May 30, 2017 2:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:21 pm 
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You really needed the spray skirts that day.

I was watching video of your old boat sinking its Amas and Akas badly in those conditions. You seem way more "expedition" ready now. However, were you popping bolts and experiencing weather helm on the old AI?

The "'lines" approach is great for its simplicity. Could be done with zero mods to the boat, if desired. A drawback is that they may become a liability when fishing, landing, boarding, etc.

Regarding hull speed w/o the mirage, do you carry the new well plug with you? Tried it?

I can't help picturing you and Walt holding a "demolition derby" to see which anti-capsize system wins. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:22 pm 
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Did anyone notice that in Peguinman's excellent EC video, he never partly furled the sail once?

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only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:58 pm 
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Totally. Here in the Batcave, we analyze every frame of EC footage... :twisted:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:43 am 
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NOHUHU wrote:
You really needed the spray skirts that day.

I was watching video of your old boat sinking its Amas and Akas badly in those conditions. You seem way more "expedition" ready now. However, were you popping bolts and experiencing weather helm on the old AI? Yes, I'm more ready for a shear pin break/capsize. No, never experienced a shear pin break or weather helm in my 2011 AI. Moving the main sheet cam cleat 13" back towards me along coaming (same height) is a tremendous improvement. Love that mod.

The "'lines" approach is great for its simplicity. Could be done with zero mods to the boat, if desired. A drawback is that they may become a liability when fishing, landing, boarding, etc. I don't catch large fish and can usually bring them in from the rear quarter of the boat. Of course, if you are going fishing or some other trip which does not require the keep-out lines, just leave them parked on the ama.

Regarding hull speed w/o the mirage, do you carry the new well plug with you? Tried it? Definitely carry the plug. It worked great on that trip. Only complaint--no place to attach a tether. That means a lot of lost plugs.

I can't help picturing you and Walt holding a "demolition derby" to see which anti-capsize system wins. :lol: That was great, sort of, that Walt was able to test his. His aka line becomes a rigid line once the pin breaks. I tried to make my system "a non-rigid system."

@Tony--good point, Tony. I'll have to check that out. Of course, it depends on how you set your sail. I simply have sailed the way I did on my 2011 and have had weather helm.

On that "test" sail, I did one tack with the plug in, and I made it--no pedaling! Tacking is great in the AI 2!

Don't get me wrong. Overall, I love this boat. Much better as a sailing boat.

Keith

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:50 am 
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tonystott wrote:
Did anyone notice that in Peguinman's excellent EC video, he never partly furled the sail once?

Tony, I checked Jim's video again and see in the very opening scene (with the title), he had a wrap or 2 on his sail. He was out in some pretty good winds at times, but it is hard to say from that 14 min video, how much he might have furled his sail during that 280 mi trip.

I just looked at Josh Holmes' (Yakass) video review of the 2015. viewtopic.php?f=71&p=257831#p257831 At 58 sec into that video, when Josh begins to talk about the 2015, he has 2-3 wraps on the furler. At 1:24 min, a different AI 2 has 2-3 wraps in. Watching the whole video, when Josh is in rough seas with strong winds, his sail is furled. Here is a quote from that thread.

Yakass wrote:
mmiller wrote:
I do have a question Yakass.

With all of the high wind sailing and heavy gear loads you had, you stated that in addition to other improvements over the original AI... steering is improved? I have been getting some grief from Chekika about weather helm in another forum topic... what is your finding?

Matt, with all due respect to him, I don't agree with Chekika about the weather helm topic. Carl and I both felt that the daggerboard improved how responsive the steering is. Neither Carl or I experienced weather helm at all during that week, and we did have some stiff winds, and we sailed them with full expedition loads and without. I've done a lot of testing off shore down south to and no issues there either.

Mind you, we always sail to suit the conditions and if we have to furl the sail a little for optimal performance, we will. I'm sure its quite possible for the rudder to be over-powered in strong enough winds, but we're inclined to furl the sail a little if conditions dictate. We figure that's partly what its for :-)

That is my underline in Josh's quote. Clearly, Josh is furling in higher winds and rough seas. That is the way to avoid weather helm (sail overpowering your rudder), simply furl your sail.

People's experiences will tell about how much, if any, the sail needs to be furled in winds 16 mph and above. In my limited experience so far, I've had to furl to prevent weather helm. I can live with it. It was just a shock the first time, in Chokoloskee Bay 2 months ago, under what I thought to be moderate conditions (winds 17-18 mph), the sail was overpowering the rudder. It took me back to my 2007 AI with the T-n-S rudder--that rudder was regularly overpowered by the sail. My 2011 AI never suffered weather helm.

The AI 2 is a very different sail boat than the AI. It is going to take me many outings to get it all figured out.

Keith

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