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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:31 pm 
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Chekika wrote:
Because of this thread length, I have made a Table of Contents. This Table is on P. 22, http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=315


stringy wrote:
What the???... Chekika's got a TI!!! :shock:
:lol:
Congrats Keith. I hope you enjoy it as much as we have. The TI has become my sailing Island of choice, so much so that I haven't sailed the AI in around two years. I recently purchased one of the last superseded Adventure kayaks new and very cheap ($1200 off) as a replacement for my AI, which I was only using in kayak mode. I'm loving the 8kg lighter hull in my commute. I plan to sell the AI soon and when I do I will be AI less for the first time in 7 years. I never thought that would happen. At one stage I even had 2 AI's, but the TI works better for us and sails great solo as well.

Just thinking out loud here ...but if the broken pin was just the result of the aka bar being hit by a wave then there would be many more reports of this occurring. I've lost count of the number of YouTube clips I've seen where the lee ama and much of the aka is totally submerged while sailing at speed.
My 2010 TI is still on its original aka brace pins and we have been out many times in conditions similar to and worse than your video clip Keith. I do always use tramps though.


Stringy, I've had the TI for at least 4 weeks and have not used it yet. There is still a major mental block for me, plus we have been busy (went to Europe for 9 days right after we bought it, for example.) Really, and it is my problem, the boat is just too big for me to handle on land. I bought it instead of getting an AI 2 for my wife after I capsized. I knew she would not like capsizing. Also, we have visitors here to S FL, and it was a ton of work for me to get 2 AIs out of the garage onto the trailer, haul them to the launch, prep them--after the sail, which sometimes involved teaching them to sail--reverse the process but include washing each boat. A lot of work. I thought a tandem would simplify that process and be a boat that my wife, and I could use. I will never use it solo, just too heavy for me--I'm old, Stringy. This week I've been putting things on it that I'm used to on my AIs. That includes hardening it: keep-out lines, aka keeper lines, leashes for the drives, a good seal on the front hatch, replace cleats around rear surface storage with padeyes, improving the seats for a dryer ride. One thing it does have: beautiful handles, a set of 4.

I'm one of those who published a video entitled "Seriously burying an AI ama." Fusioneng said something like, "I cringed when I watched that video." On that day though, I had an empty boat (just a repair gear in a dry bag.) I didn't even have hakas, so the weight was nothing compared to my AI 2 loaded for camping.



I think the bolt broke because of the aka bar hitting the wave and being driven into the wave with the force of a fully loaded (camping gear, water, etc.) AI 2 and traveling faster than my AIs. It never happened with an AI, and I drove them just as hard, but not as fast. In addition, the amas on the AI are shaped to drive up over a wave whereas on the AI 2, the amas are wave piercing. I guess I'm suggesting that the aka shear bolt is not appropriate for the AI 2, at least the way I use the boat. I'm still trying to figure out why that shear bolt broke. This is my best explanation.

You could ask the question in another way: What did the aka/ama hit in open water? My answer: a wave.

Finally, the AI 2 is a big boat--just as wide as the TI, but 2 feet shorter. Still the shear pin is the same for all Islands. The pin is designed to break under stress. It is fair to ask, at what point is the standard shear pin not appropriate for all boats under typical use?

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:27 pm 
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Keith, firstly, congrats on getting a TI

Couple of things. I just bet that the all-up weight of your TI is not so heavier than your AI2 than you imagine (18" of carbon mast, 23" of hull, 1 seat and 1 Miragedrive). I would love to find out the exact weights, now that you have them both to compare.

Re the aka pins. My advice is NOT to replace the stock pins with stronger ones! If forces strong enough to break the stock pins cannot break stronger ones, all the forces are concentrated at the pins' location, halfway along the aka. Bending or breaking the aka would be a catastrophe....

If you have keep-out lines, the stock pins will never break.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:13 pm 
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tonystott wrote:
Keith, firstly, congrats on getting a TI

Thanks, Tony. I'll give it a fair try. It will be fun getting out with my wife.


tonystott wrote:
Couple of things. I just bet that the all-up weight of your TI is not so heavier than your AI2 than you imagine (18" of carbon mast, 23" of hull, 1 seat and 1 Miragedrive). I would love to find out the exact weights, now that you have them both to compare.

I would too. Maybe I can do it some time.


tonystott wrote:
Re the aka pins. My advice is NOT to replace the stock pins with stronger ones! If forces strong enough to break the stock pins cannot break stronger ones, all the forces are concentrated at the pins' location, halfway along the aka. Bending or breaking the aka would be a catastrophe...If you have keep-out lines, the stock pins will never break.

I'm sure that is good advice, but I'm the one who capsized (the 4th time I used my AI 2 and the 1st time camping with my AI 2.) I've been with you, Tony, in advising against steel pins or haka locks (haka strapped so strongly, the aka/amas cannot collapse) and comparable rigid systems. However, the nylatron screws are just a beefed-up aka shear pin. I'm sure many Hobie aka/ama shear pins are broken, but Hobie has done nothing about it. Better error on the side of pin breaking rather than too stiff, I suppose. In any case, I (& Flaneur) will be the guinea pigs for nylatron screws.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


Last edited by Chekika on Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:43 pm 
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Please correct this if wrong.. but I recall that when that capsize occurred, you had a broken sheer pin PLUS the ball that attaches to the hull was unscrewed from the hull but held captive by the arm. Your conclusion was that the sheer pin busted and then the washing motion had unscrewed the ball.

Sometime take the sheer pin out and try and use that arm to "unscrew" the ball. Take about six months to work on it.. Im pretty sure you wont get anywhere if the ball was properly glued. In my opinion, its much more likely that the ball came unscrewed (maybe because not enough loktite was used in production) so that the arm was no longer anchored to the hull and now the ama moving back and forth caught the arm just right and broke the sheer pin. I know another person with a TI who also had the ball unscrew and had a similar result (capsize).

Point being that you seem to be trying to solve a problem based on thinking the sheer pin broke. However, it seems way more likely to me that your capsize was caused by the ball working loose - and in which case you would be trying to solve a problem with the sheer pin that may not even exist.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:14 pm 
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Walt, why would the shear pin break (it was broken), if the brace connector knob fell out? You are hypothesizing that the knob fell out and the brace arm somehow broke the shear pin. I just don't buy it. I lost a knob on my fairly new 2007 AI when I transported it 60 miles upside down on a trailer as per Hobie's instructions at the time. It was gone at the end of that hour drive on normal pavement. It is certainly possible that the knob on my AI 2 was not glued in "properly" as you suggest and unscrewed by the loose brace (due to broken shear pin.) I'm not sure what Hobie does to ensure those knobs are correctly glued in, but I think your knob theory is unlikely. Many shear pins break. I've not heard of many people losing the attachment knob--only your example & mine in 2007. In any case, I have glued both of mine in on the AI 2, and I'll check the Tandem.

walt wrote:
Sometime take the sheer pin out and try and use that arm to "unscrew" the ball. Take about six months to work on it. I'm pretty sure you wont get anywhere if the ball was properly glued.
Your argument in your post assumes the knob is not glued in properly. You say, "maybe because not enough loktite was used in production" I agree, otherwise why would it unscrew! The brace and broken shear pin are not just dangling free. The brace is attached to the aka via its tether. The aka with haka is attached to the ama. The aka/ama/haka are all under water and the whole boat was being blown across the water by the strong winds and was being lifted up and down by the waves. The boat was drifting for about an hour. My guess is that there was pressure on that brace arm and that pressure was enough to work the knob (improperly glued--we agree) loose. As I said, on my 2007, it was simply enough to transport the boat upside down 60 miles to lose my brace knob.

walt wrote:
Point being that you seem to be trying to solve a problem based on thinking the sheer pin broke (it was broken). However, it seems way more likely to me (you are entitled to your opinion) that your capsize was caused by the ball working loose - and in which case you would be trying to solve a problem with the sheer pin that may not even exist.

I suppose that is possible, but I'm in very good company in trying to solve that problem.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:18 am 
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Chekika wrote:
SNIP I've been with you, Tony, in advising against steel pins or haka locks (haka strapped so strongly, the aka/amas cannot collapse) and comparable rigid systems. However, the nylatron screws are just a beefed-up aka shear pin. I'm sure many Hobie aka/ama shear pins are broken, but Hobie has done nothing about it. Better error on the side of pin breaking rather than too stiff, I suppose. In any case, I (& Flaneur) will be the guinea pigs for nylatron screws.

Keith

Keith, I suspect "Hobie has done nothing about it" because Hobie engineers have determined that a shear pin is the built-in "weak link", designed to be the least catastrophic outcome if the aka hits an obstacle. I am sure they weighed up the consequences of fitting a stronger shear pin. I think that the widely implemented "keep-out lines" provide a satisfactory method of hardening up the Island.

If you do fit a stronger shear pin, would you gamble on its capability by removing your keep-out lines? If you still feel the need to retain the keep-out lines, changing the shear pin sorta becomes redundant IMO.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:24 am 
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tonystott wrote:
If you do fit a stronger shear pin, would you gamble on its capability by removing your keep-out lines? If you still feel the need to retain the keep-out lines, changing the shear pin sorta becomes redundant IMO.

My keep-out lines are designed to give (& the shear pin breaks). I don't think they will prevent a Hobie shear pin from breaking. Still, when it comes to a possible capsize on a wilderness trip with unknown consequences, I'll take some redundancy in my system. Also, I will be using my new hakas--more redundancy.

Remember, at this point I've had one AI 2 camping trip and one capsize. Batting 100% so far with the big camping season coming up.

Tony, you are making me a bit nervous about putting those nylatron pins in. On the other hand, I don't intend to hit anything except waves. Still, I've ordered 8 nylatron pins. Plenty to play around with on the work bench and see how they compare to the Hobie pin (I have 8-10 of those.)

Yes, I said, "Hobie has done nothing about it" referring to broken shear pins. Tony, don't you find it a bit strange that a single shear pin is used on 3 different boats: AI, AI 2, and Tandem? Clearly, Hobie thinks it has the "perfect" shear pin. After my experience, I'm not as confident.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:45 am 
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I get that it seems strange that Hobie uses the same pin for all three models, but it isn't so strange if you think of the shear pin being a "safety valve" for the aka. In actual fact, it would seem that all the akas are quite similar (tube thickness etc), so the force needed to bend them would also be similar. Well that's my theory anyways LOL.

Maybe fusioneng might like to contribute his thoughts...

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:19 am 
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tonystott wrote:
...In actual fact, it would seem that all the akas are quite similar (tube thickness etc), so the force needed to bend them would also be similar.

But, that is my point, the force applied to the pin must be quite different for the 3 boats.

Yes, yes, where is Fusioneng?? Maybe he is working up a lengthy statement.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:37 am 
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Quote:
Walt, why would the shear pin break (it was broken), if the brace connector knob fell out?


I wasn't there.. but have spent a lot of time on both the AI and TI and can imagine (or speculate) that the ball had a manufacturing defect where maybe someone completely forgot to add loctite during assembly (or used not enough loctite) and the ball worked its way loose. The ball has a stud on one end and at some point the stud would have completely worked out of the hull fastener allowing that end of the brace to freely move around (with the ball still captive like you found it after the capsize). With that brace no longer attached to the hull but the sheer pin still holding the brace in a prone position, the ama would be free to swing back and forth in the waves. During one of those swings, the brace came in contact with the hull and it popped the sheer pin. There is a tether on the brace at the sheer pin side that would have held the brace in exactly the condition that you found it after the incident.

That is speculation on my part. However, I just wanted to point out that the sheer pin breaking first and then causing the ball to come out is also speculation. We dont agree on which case is more likely and Im fine with that.. I just wanted to make sure someone reading this understands there is some uncertainty in your conclusion - which was not clear a few posts back.

The sheer pin breaking during sailing is somewhat of a design flaw. The ball working loose during sailing is a manufacturing flaw (not glued in correctly). Either case is not really acceptable (given that you capsize). I have sailed both the old AI and a 2015 TI a fair amount and have broken the sheer pin on both boats and felt that both times the design worked exactly like it should have. There was no damage to the boat at all, just a broken sheer pin.

And.. I also always have some sort of safety tether or leash on the TI (especially if my wife is with me) so that I dont capsize if either the pin or the ball have some sort of failure.

Anyhow.. just making a small point. Regardless, Im enjoying your thread so carry on.. hopefully no offense at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:54 am 
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Thanks for your reply, Walt. Yes, it is all speculation because I simply was paying no attention to the aka/ama which collapsed. My point, however, is pretty simple: many shear pins break (you can easily find shear pins to buy), but it is rare to lose an aka connector knob--ask any company to sell you one. They are usually at a loss to find an item number.

I'm taking what I think to be a far more common scenario for the aka/ama collapse: shear pin break. The only question in my mind is why?

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:07 am 
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What I understood is that in your case the ball was still attached to the brace - ie, you didnt lose it. Also there was nothing wrong with it and you just screwed it back (likely with a adequate loctite this time). People do pop sheer pins but likely rarely lose the balls (even when they work loose which is what happened to someone I know). Not hard to see why its hard to find the ball... you neither lose it or damage it.

What is a lot harder for me to imagine happening is the brace working that ball loose like a wrench. If the ball was assembled correctly, in my opinion, it would be just about impossible to use that freely rotating brace to either tighten or loosen the ball.. Try this sometime.. remove the sheer pin and see how far you get trying to get that ball loose.

Im just not at all familiar with any cases where sheer pins broke while sailing (except your case which we have been discussing). Maybe they do.. dont know. As mentioned, Ive only heard of them working as designed.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:23 am 
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No, the ball was gone. I don't think there is a lot of significance to that. If the ball unscrewed by action of the brace, a simple bump against the end of the brace could drop it out. In fact, I could have lost it from the brace when I pushed the spring loaded brace cap back as I went to attach it to the knob--only to find the knob missing. Again, all speculation. I'm taking the most likely situation: shear pin break. Remember the fact: the shear pin was broken.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:30 am 
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Ok.. the facts: the sheer pin was broken AND the ball had come out and was lost. The rest is speculation.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:33 am 
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Last summer I did a 250 mile trip on the lower Columbia river with my new AI2. When the tide flows up the river conditions can get extreme. I beat the heck out of the boat and finished the trip through the legendary Columbia river bar on a really bad day. 12 to 14 foot standing waves on top of each other. The boat smashed through the top of the waves and slammed hard into the trough over and over again for miles. I dont know how the boat held together. I thought I would be on a pile of
wreakage. No hakas or preventers, took a beating and held together.
I did find a loose aka ball in my post trip inspection.


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