Return to Hobie.com

Hobie Forums

It is currently Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:59 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 70 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:58 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:43 am
Posts: 474
Location: Long Island NY
Interesting that this post was brought back up to the top ..

.. after re-reading Chekika's original first posts from 2013 about wanting an AI Magnum, I'm wondering if he feels that is what he got with his AI2.

Yesterday, I was out in a pretty good blow in my unmodded 2007 V1 AI and I had about 4 turns reefed because id lose rudder control with any more out .. Ama was almost fully buried and It was a bit hairy/scary but I loved it. I was impressed that such a well used boat could still pretty much laugh at these conditions and perform as designed and built 8 years prior

All I kept wondering was how much better/faster the ride would be on an AI2 in similar conditions (which are the conditions I mostly yearn for ..)

Would I have been able to have more sail out and more power to the boat due to the larger Ama's ? control it better due to the larger TI rudder ?

.. wish I had a GPS reading, but, when you put your hand back in the water behind the rear Aka and it skips on the surface - thats when I know Im Movin' !

_________________
Alan W.

Papaya AI2 to replace my well worn V1
TheTwins - His/Hers 2007 Papaya Hobie Adventure Island's (v1.00.01)
.. and a Hobie Outback SUV


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:41 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 3087
Location: South Florida
PassWind wrote:
Interesting that this post was brought back up to the top ..

.. after re-reading Chekika's original first posts from 2013 about wanting an AI Magnum, I'm wondering if he feels that is what he got with his AI2.

Yesterday, I was out in a pretty good blow in my unmodded 2007 V1 AI and I had about 4 turns reefed because id lose rudder control with any more out .. Ama was almost fully buried and It was a bit hairy/scary but I loved it. I was impressed that such a well used boat could still pretty much laugh at these conditions and perform as designed and built 8 years prior

All I kept wondering was how much better/faster the ride would be on an AI2 in similar conditions (which are the conditions I mostly yearn for ..)

Would I have been able to have more sail out and more power to the boat due to the larger ama's ? control it better due to the larger TI rudder ?

Hi PW,

Yes, I would say that Hobie has upgraded the AI to a "magnum" version, the AI 2. In my limited experience, it seems to have very good speed (comparable to a TI), it has a much dryer ride because of the greatly increased bow volume, redesign of the amas, and shifting the amas forward.

My biggest disappointment is that the AI 2 has taken a step backwards: in winds 16-18 mph with the full sail out, the boat weathercocks, just as your 2007 with it's small rudder does. In other words, the sail overpowers the rudder on the AI 2. Matt Miller has denied this claim, but I stand by it.

The other bothersome aspect is the possibility that the AI 2 is somewhat prone to unexpectedly breaking an aka brace shear pin. I can't say if my accident last April (shear pin break in open water with instantaneous capsize) was a special case or whether it is a problem with the AI 2. If it happens to you, it is a problem.

I've greatly "hardened" my AI 2 to prevent capsize and other potential problems. You can read about my modifications here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=750 You can also read all my "pros" and "cons" here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=720. This latter page is very long. Scroll down to the bottom to see the pros/cons of the AI 2.

Overall, I think the AI 2 is a much needed upgrade and a winner.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:19 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2693
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Keith:
The AI-2 by your discription now has very similar in characteristics to my TI, I find if I'm in 16-18mph winds I need to furl the sail in some to prevent from capsizing, and also lessen weather helm, usually two turns is enough for me and I don't seem to lose any speed. I always found showing too much sail in higher winds doesn't buy me anything but frustration. I consider the furlable sail to be one of the most desirable features of my TI.
FE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:33 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 3087
Location: South Florida
I'm afraid Hobie spoiled me when they brought out the large rudder in 2011, and it ended the poor sailing characteristics of the original "twist-n-stow" rudder. So, I was disappointed to find the AI 2 again exhibiting weather cocking in strong winds. Of course, you can furl the sail a turn or 2 and avoid the weather cocking. I don't know how furling the sail affects performance under high winds. Because I'm in the southern Rockies all summer, I have not had a chance to experiment with some of these things.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:18 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm
Posts: 704
Location: Benicia, CA
Chekika wrote:
So, I was disappointed to find the AI 2 again exhibiting weather cocking in strong winds. Of course, you can furl the sail a turn or 2 and avoid the weather cocking.

Keith


Most likely, the reason for helm loss in these instances is that the rudder is stalled (like what happens on an airplane wing when it stalls, it stops providing lift-in this case, steerage). On a fast boat, you would typically drop the traveler so the mainsail leach is further leeward (the mainsail leach is what is causing the need for excessive rudder angle which is what causes the rudder to stall to begin with--it might be useful for you to look at the leach when this happens and see if it is hooked at all). You can either rig a barberhaul to haul the mainsail leach to lee (assuming it is not hooked), release some mainsail tension or furl a couple turns. Any of those will stop the stalled rudder. BTW, with use of excessive rudder, you aren't going any faster...it might seem like it to you, though, because you are working harder...think judo in big wind or in more modern versions, ... "Use the force..."

_________________
R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:35 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 925
Location: Blacklick, Ohio
I had the rudder stall several times on my TI this past weekend. I wasn't out in heavy wind, but I was very easily able to over steer the rudder and cause it to stall. It happened both making course corrections at speed as well as tacking. Part of my problem might have been with the hiking stick not providing the feedback that the rudder handle itself does.

_________________
2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

  • Trampolines
  • Hobie cover
  • Davis Spar Fly
  • Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
  • Spine Board Hakas


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:58 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2693
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I think Pulling the sail in too tight in higher winds so you can get the tells to point straight back causes me to need too much rudder (creating drag), I find it better to release the sail a little even if the inside tell starts dancing, doing this seems to require less rudder, and the boat just seems more balanced and stable (less weatherhelm), but then again my TI is modified with a jib, which seems to put a different perspective on everything for me.
FE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:30 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm
Posts: 704
Location: Benicia, CA
It is way too easy to overtension the mainsail by sheeting too hard and the consequent windward hooking leach on these boats. The battens don't go with the wind flow and since there is roach on the leach, overtensioning the mainsheet causes that roach to hook windward which, in turn, causes huge amounts of drag...the placement of that force aft of the sailplan coe causes excessive weather helm (most boats are designed to have a little weather helm for safety). If you don't have telltales on your leach, put one or two or three. If they are sucked behind the mainsail...the mainsheet is probably too tight--but typically you can readily see the hooking on these little sails. Yah, I know that Randy Smyth recommends a little overtensioning the mainsheet with multihulls, but only for the top leach telltale, not the ones further down.

It is a natural tendency to pull something too tight for sailors--even experienced sailors. One of the things I always have trained my racing crews to do is stop if something takes too much work--don't grunt through it. Chances are good that something is wrong.

_________________
R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:16 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 3087
Location: South Florida
fusioneng wrote:
I think Pulling the sail in too tight in higher winds so you can get the tells to point straight back causes me to need too much rudder (creating drag), I find it better to release the sail a little even if the inside tell starts dancing, doing this seems to require less rudder, and the boat just seems more balanced and stable (less weatherhelm), but then again my TI is modified with a jib, which seems to put a different perspective on everything for me.
FE

I do the same.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:27 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:43 am
Posts: 474
Location: Long Island NY
Chekika wrote:
Hi PW,

Yes, I would say that Hobie has upgraded the AI to a "magnum" version, the AI 2.

Keith


Thanks Keith - appreciate your opinion and have read most of the linked threads. 2hr commute each way/day gives me lots of playtime reading

_________________
Alan W.

Papaya AI2 to replace my well worn V1
TheTwins - His/Hers 2007 Papaya Hobie Adventure Island's (v1.00.01)
.. and a Hobie Outback SUV


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 70 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group