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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:12 am 
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No. absolutely not.

There is no law in any EU country that I am aware of that refers to CE marking with regards to where you can and cant go with your boat.

Please google up and find the law you are referring to and post it so we can look at it.

If you are correct you can take the CE mark off and sail on the sea. However the issue relates to insurance I suspect and if you have sufficient cover for your Ti then I cant see what the objection would be.

As I say lets see what is written down to find out if there is a way round it.

CC

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:48 am 
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Chopcat wrote:
No. absolutely not.

There is no law in any EU country that I am aware of that refers to CE marking with regards to where you can and cant go with your boat.

Please google up and find the law you are referring to and post it so we can look at it.

If you are correct you can take the CE mark off and sail on the sea. However the issue relates to insurance I suspect and if you have sufficient cover for your Ti then I cant see what the objection would be.

As I say lets see what is written down to find out if there is a way round it.

CC

EU Directives as the one I refererred in initial post (2003/44/CE) is not immeaditely applied after it is officially pubblished, any european country must convert the directive in a national law within 2 years since its pubblication.
The Italian law that transpose the EU Directive 2003/44/CE, is the one you can download at this link:
http://www.guardiacostiera.it/ACFE38/de ... 180705.zip

The art. 27 specifies the limits for different recreational boats (both CE and no CE marked), and in particular at comma 4:
Italian
4. I natanti provvisti di marcatura CE possono navigare nei limiti stabiliti dalla categoria di progettazione di appartenenza di cui all'allegato II.
English translation
4. The recreational boats CE marked can sail within the limits stated by the design category they belong to, as specified in the Annex II.

Can you please have a look to the your national laws, and try to identify which is the national law that transpose the EU Directive 2003/44/CE?
If you find it, please check if there is some sailing limit specified for recreational CE marked boat, and please share it.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:52 am 
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I just looked in the manual that came with my TI and on page 18, the boat CE classification is clearly stated "D" in the manual ( http://static.hobiecat.com/digital_asse ... _rev-b.pdf) as well as the big ole plaque that I took a picture of earlier (hard to miss, and probably difficult to remove as well). I fail to understand why this is not clear.....

Also clearly stated in the caution/safety tips section it is stated "do not take the Hobie Mirage Tandem Island out in the surf or head out in the ocean unless you are an extremely experienced sailer". This cannot be any clearer and anyone researching to purchase a boat should know where they plan to use the boat before purchase, and be aware of how they plan to use the boat, the limitations, and local laws before they buy the boat. ( Just like Tony described, buying a Ferrari then finding out it doesn't fit in the garage, or in my case buying a sports car and finding it only sits 3 inches off the ground, and is useless for towing and launching my TI (LOL, I get stuck all the time at launches) )
I don't feel Hobie has hidden any information from anyone and the 'D' CE classification is correct for the boat in it's 'from the factory stock configuration'. Especially given the fact that the optional AMA's, sail, tramps, etc can easily be removed, and the hull alone can be used, I wouldn't recommend taking the Hobie TI kayak (without AMA's and mainsail) out in anything more the what CE class "D" outlines, the certification is affixed to the hull itself (not on all the added optional components).
In the US the laws appear to be more strict, in as according to the 'coast guard rules' you are not allowed more than 2 miles from shore unless your boat is equipped with a bunch of safety equipment (listed on their website), and you will be pulled over and checked ( I have, but they don't take your boat away and leave you stranded out at sea with nothing, "that would be a little harsh", typically they just give you a warning, and make you go closer to shore (watching to make sure you comply (for your own safety)). Remember they are only trying to keep you safe from yourself.
I have owned 3 TI's myself in the last 4 years with well in excess of 6000 sailing miles in pretty much any conditions, and know the boat and it's limitations well.

I personally would never take a stock TI out in open ocean more than 2-3 miles off shore even with the mainsail, AMA's, tramps, etc (especially in rough seas or high winds). Especially if I didn't have all the correct safety equipment on board, and the boat itself modified and hardened for off shore use (mine is heavily modified/hardened for off shore use).
Most TI users who do regularly go off shore and out into open ocean are pretty experienced sailers, and know the areas we plan to sail (our home waters), and always have backup and shore support just in case something bad happens.
I can give examples of things on the TI that have to be modified or strengthened for off shore use.

1. The plastic rudder pin will likely shear and you will lose rudder control in adverse conditions (20mph plus winds, and/or 3 ft plus seas). Either a backup steering system, or a hardened rudder system needs to be in place before even thinking of going out in open water. Anyone (like me) who has tried to replace their rudder pin in rough seas (3-4 ft chop and high winds) knows it is pretty much impossible.

2. The Nylon sheer bolts on the AMA's that prevent the AMA's from folding in, are not strong enough for off shore use, I personally have sheered many of these pins. My TI has tie down ropes fixing the AMA's in the open position so they cannot fold in.

3. The base of the mast holder (at the bottom of the hull) is a 1/4-20 stud that is affixed to the bottom of the hull, this stud is not sufficient for adverse conditions and will shear off in really strong downwind or rough conditions. I inserted an aluminum plate inside my hull pinched in between the back of the mast holder, and the front wall of the mirage drive pocket, then the entire area is epoxied in to take the load away from that lone little stud. Every TI I have purchased that's the first thing I do (the re-enforcement is easily removed when you sell the boat if desired). In addition I would never go out in open water without a rear stay line on the mast which takes some of the stress from that little stud.

4. The bungy cords that hold the AMA's onto the AKA arms are not sufficient for use in rough seas or open ocean, the AMA's can easily fall off ( mine have came off in rough seas (the rear AKA brace fell out). My rope brace systems prevents the AMA's from falling off, and flopping around.

5. I typically sail 'off shore' around Key West (where we have our second home) which is an Island with notorious and very strong currents (gulf stream runs in the area I typically sail south of the island (where the coral reefs are)), a stock TI with mirage drives is unable to overcome these currents, basically if you get caught in them in light winds, or from the wrong direction, next stop Cuba or north Carolina. A stock TI cannot get you back to the Island (this has actually happened to me). My TI is rigged with additional sail area (basically rigged for the area and typical conditions), without the additional sails I would be very worried, and would not attempt going off shore in that area especially. (NOTE: We are scuba divers, and snorkelers, and typically use our TI to support our activities)

6. My TI is equipped with a very reliable backup propulsion system, that in the event of all else failing (including rudder breakage), I can count on to get me back to shore. I always carry at a minimum 150 miles worth of fuel for the Honda engine on board. This emergency backup engine has saved my bacon on many occasions. Personally I would never dream of going off shore without it. Actually in 4 yrs I have never taken my TI out anywhere sailing in salt water without the engine installed on the boat.

7. The US coast guard has very strict rules on required safety equipment required on any boat more than 2 miles off shore, which is heavily enforced. I would never dream of going offshore without all the required safety equipment on board and in good working order (your flares have to have current certification), and you darn sure better have current local charts on board, as well as a reliable FM radio, and full navigation lighting (you never know if you will be out after dark).

Even with all that we tend to try to Island hop whenever possible trying to stay no more than 2-3 miles from any land mass. And when we do go further off shore (like to the coral reefs) we try to stay in heavy traffic areas where there are lots of other boats around, and seldom venture beyond cell phone range of KW.

I agree with the CE 'D' rating on the stock Tandem Island, unless you know what your are doing and very experienced at offshore sailing, have the know how to harden and equip the TI for offshore use, it's best to stay within the recommended guidelines of the CE "D" classification in my opinion.
Of course this is all just my personal opinion, and means nothing, but I would feel bad if someone took their TI out based on some of the stuff I have done with mine thinking the stock boat can do what my heavily modified TI can do and gets hurt or lost at sea. I understand completely the risk that I take on myself, using my TI the way I do, but don't recommend anyone else do the same without the knowledge, experience, and knowhow to accomplish it safely.

Would any of the above prevent me from buying another Tandem Island, or am I be concerned that the Boat only has a "D" CE rating. Not in a million years, The Tandem Island boats are unique in the industry, and there is no equal to this boat available on the market
as far as versatility and ease of use. Basically I accept it's limitations, and work around them. Perhaps someday they will come out with a more hardened "C" version of the boat, I will be first in line to buy one, in the mean time I just work with what I have because The TI is unique in the industry with no equal (literally nothing else out there in the same league).

Here is a pic of my heavily modified TI with 265 sq ft of sails (the big 135 sq ft spinnaker is furled up on the deck). This was at a recent Hobie Island club outing where me and one other island launched later than the main group and missed the tide going out the pass. Trying to catch up with the main group I ended up towing the second TI eight miles in 7 mph winds at an average speed of around 7 to 7.5 mph (powersailing) in order to catch up with the rest of the group ( I used $.40 cents worth of fuel that day). A typical stock TI sails .6 wind speed, mine easily sails 1.2 to 1.5 wind speed thru pretty much all points of sail (including upwind). Top speed is around 20 mph. The boat is hardened for offshore use.
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Hope this helps
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:54 am 
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Quote:
Article 27 .
Pleasure craft
1 . The vessels referred to in Article 3 , paragraph 1, letter d) , are excluded from enrollment in the registers referred to in Article 15 of the navigation license referred to in Article 23 and the certificate of security Article 26.
2 . The pleasure craft , on request, can be entered in the records of recreational craft and in this case it is their legal regime .
3 . The boats can navigate without CE marking : a) within six miles of the coast ;
b ) within twelve miles of the coast , if approved for navigation without limits or if recognized as suitable for the navigation of a technical body notified under Article 10 or authorized under the decree of 3 August 1998 n . 314 , in this case, during navigation shall be kept on board a copy of the certificate of approval with its declaration of conformity or the certificate of eligibility issued by the aforementioned body ;
c) within one mile from the coast , boats called gigs , shoes, canoes , pedalos , pedal boats , windsurfers and sailing boats with sail area not more than 4 square meters, as well as jet skis or jet skis and similar means .
4 . The vessels bearing the CE marking can navigate within the limits established by the design category of membership set out in Annex II.
5 . Navigation and methods of use of the vessels referred to in paragraph 3, letter c) , shall be governed by the relevant authorities maritime and inland waterways .
6 . The use of pleasure boats for the purpose of lease or rental for recreational purposes or for tourism uses local, as well as support to scuba diving in sporting or recreational purposes and disciplined , even for the mode of their conduct , by order of the competent authorities of the sea or inland waterway transport , in agreement with the local authorities .


Thanks for this. It is very interesting.

Paragraphs 3(a) and 4 cannot be exclusive. A boat that is not CE marked cannot be allowed to do more that one that is. Otherwise previous advice about removing the CE and getting on with it applies. As soon as you modify the boat, arguably, the CE mark is void anyway.

You can opt to register the boat under paragraph 2.

And no we have no such laws here. But then all us sailors support a life boat service and pay taxes for SAR. I'm glad there is something that we are more liberal here on.....until Brussels sticks their oar in :lol:

Oh and Bob I see you have gone another one better with a tri sail now :shock:

CC

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:15 pm 
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Chopcat wrote:
Quote:
Article 27 .
Pleasure craft

3 . The boats can navigate without CE marking : a) within six miles of the coast ;
b ) within twelve miles of the coast , if approved for navigation without limits or if recognized as suitable for the navigation of a technical body notified under Article 10 or authorized under the decree of 3 August 1998 n . 314 , in this case, during navigation shall be kept on board a copy of the certificate of approval with its declaration of conformity or the certificate of eligibility issued by the aforementioned body ;
c) within one mile from the coast , boats called gigs , shoes, canoes , pedalos , pedal boats , windsurfers and sailing boats with sail area not more than 4 square meters, as well as jet skis or jet skis and similar means .



And no we have no such laws here.
CC


Sweden is also free from such laws.
If your boat is under 12m long and under 4m wide, you dont even need any certificate of competence at all.
(there is some limitation about speed, but if it is a sailboat this applies)

It is not against any law to take your Island and go from Stockholm right over to Helsingfors (Finland).

As I understand article 27 is valid law in Italy?

br thomas


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:59 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
I just looked in the manual that came with my TI and on page 18, the boat CE classification is clearly stated "D" in the manual ( http://static.hobiecat.com/digital_asse ... _rev-b.pdf) as well as the big ole plaque that I took a picture of earlier (hard to miss, and probably difficult to remove as well). I fail to understand why this is not clear.....


Hope this helps
Bob

It helps more than a lot.
Thanks

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:06 am 
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Kal-P-Dal wrote:
As I understand article 27 is valid law in Italy?

br thomas


Yes that's the current Italian law.

By the way, I am continuing googling on the issue, and I found out that as for common understanding, for CE marked boats, there is no limitation in terms of distance from the coast and no limited sea area. It seems that even in Italy for CE marked boat it is under complete responsability of the owner to use it wherever he wants, but in appropriate weather condition (as specified for the Design Category).

I hope to have an official answer from coast guard, as soon as I will in Italy.

Thanks

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:19 pm 
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What kind of Italian follows any rules anyway? :lol:

Drive your scooter where you like, bribe the city planners and don't annoy the garbage man.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:02 am 
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Ha Ha

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:13 am 
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cosybike wrote:
What kind of Italian follows any rules anyway? :lol:

Drive your scooter where you like, bribe the city planners and don't annoy the garbage man.

That's Italy, I live in Sicily! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:49 am 
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cosybike wrote:
What kind of Italian follows any rules anyway? :lol:

Drive your scooter where you like, bribe the city planners and don't annoy the garbage man.


Around the world who have money, have good lawyers (O.J .Simpson), and can do whatever he wants.
But in Italy the Coast Guard is not a voluntary group of people , not a garbage man ...... but a police marine "MILITARY" !!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:55 am 
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maurizio wrote:
cosybike wrote:
What kind of Italian follows any rules anyway? :lol:

Drive your scooter where you like, bribe the city planners and don't annoy the garbage man.


Around the world who have money, have good lawyers (O.J .Simpson), and can do whatever he wants.
But in Italy the Coast Guard is not a voluntary group of people , not a garbage man ...... but a police marine "MILITARY" !!!!!!!
Maurizio, I am sure the comment was made in jest, after all, it IS the common perception of Italians. Our maritime laws are also administered by professionals, both Water Police and Maritime Boating Safety Officers. In addition we also have a volunteer marine rescue group, and I suspect many of us from different countries have various similar combinations. .

As I said earlier, it would be good to actually discuss the situation about use of Hobie Islands with your Coast Guard, as only then can this rotary discussion reach a conclusion.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:03 am 
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BTW, O J Simpson is now serving a rather lengthy sentence in a Nevada (state), for conviction on a number of counts unrelated to his famous murder trial. He was also convicted in a civil "wrongful death" trial and required to pay damages (although I don't know if he has paid any yet--good lawyers, as you say.)

Keith

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:26 am 
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I'm only being a bit sarcastic when I pose this question - I'd actually be interested to know. What would happen if you tied a few logs together into a raft and attempt to set sail in Italian waters? Would that be allowed?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:54 am 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
I'm only being a bit sarcastic when I pose this question - I'd actually be interested to know. What would happen if you tied a few logs together into a raft and attempt to set sail in Italian waters? Would that be allowed?

It is allowed if sailing within the law limitation, basically within 300 meter from the coast everything is allowed.

I want to add an important and sad information related to the Italian coastal sailing limitations.
As I said I live in Sicily, almost every week thousands of people coming from Africa try to reach Sicilian coasts using old and unsafe boats.
Illegal landings determine thousands of deaths every year.
Italian coast guard is continuosly working in sea rescues.
Maybe this is the reason because our law is so strictly limited.

Regards

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