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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:57 am 
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mmiller wrote:
... We list crew size simply as a guide for most likely use. ...

If the sticker is meant as nothing more than a guide it's a really, really bad idea to specify only two people because it will cause significant problems for your customers and it will unnecessarily restrict the use of the TI and AI. Coast Guard requirements (http://www.uscg.mil/d1/prevention/navinfo/navinfo/documents/b-boating_safety.pdf) exempt capacity plates on sailboats and kayaks, but if a capacity plate is present it's generally not permitted to remove it and local and state law officials will often enforce it. Federal law does not enforce the limits imposed by capacity plates but State and local laws can and often do.

I've been boating for over 30 years in three states and have been stopped many times on the dock and on the water by local and state law enforcement, never for anything more than very minor issues or inspections. In my experience they always take note of the boat's capacity plate and whatever it says is what they enforce. If the sticker lists a total of two people, there better not be more than two people on board or your day of boating is probably over. They never look at the "or", the weight limit is taken as a secondary value for the total weight of the crew and gear. I don't blame law enforcement for this, they need to use something to determine the boat's safe capacity limits and the boat manufacturer's capacity plate is all they usually have to go by. It's the responsibility of the boat manufacturer to get it right.

Hobie's ads often show additional passengers on the tramps or in the boat (often children but also adults) indicating that they clearly sanction, suggest, and encourage such use:
Image
(Above photo from the 2015 Hobie TI web site)

This is fine since the boat can hold up to 600 pounds. So why then does Hobie list only two people on their capacity plate leaving their customers open to unnecessary restrictions by law enforcement??? If the sticker simply said 4 people or 600 pounds maximum there would be no problems when we're stopped.

So Hobie, which is it? Can the boat handle more than two people or not? If yes then please list 3 or 4 people on the capacity plate. If not then you should never show more than 1 or 2 people in photos depicting the use of an AI or a TI respectively because that is clearly misleading as to the suggested use of the boat. What if a family of two parents and two children pays $6,200 for a new TI based upon the above photo only to find out that law enforcement sends them back home at the dock? Hobie either needs to apply a capacity plate with the actual acceptable crew capacity or properly depict the suggested use of the boat, they cannot be contradictory. It has to be either one or the other, you cannot have both.


Last edited by pro10is on Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:34 am 
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
If we were to go by pro10is' logic then the capacity plate should either be removed, or simply state 600 lbs. and leave off the number of crew. Honestly I think the TI is capable of carrying way over 600 lbs., probably more like 800 lbs., but I think Hobie errs on the side of caution. I think having the CE sticker on domestic boats is misleading as well. If the boat is destined for an overseas location then slap the sticker on it, if not then leave it off.

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:50 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I'm just speculating here, but there is likely a good reason for Hobie to understate the capacity of the TI initially. This had to do with sales of their main bread and butter ie...sail boats back in 2010 (likely a corporate decision). Understate is a harsh term, extremely conservative is better. They I'm sure wanted at the time to protect the Wave, H16, and Getaway sales (I think their main bread and butter at the time (who knew how much things can change over time lol)). A good example of this is the Wave with a 4 passenger and 800 lb capacity, if anyone has seen 4 big adults on a wave at around 800 lbs, it's not going anywhere in any hurry, and sits really deep in the water ( looks overloaded, we see them at Smathers beach sometimes (rentals)). Even H16's loaded with that much weight don't look so hot or fast anymore (lol). Though I've seen several Getaways all filled up with people and they look to do ok (wouldn't mine having one of those).
In other words It's pretty obvious what is going on here.
The only trip up in Hobies original plan was I don't they anticipated all the states enacting their own laws requiring the mandatory manufacturers capacity plates to be followed (a fly in the ointment that only recently came to being). I absolutely do not blame the states in any way, their only intent is to promote safety as best they can.
We have a pretty heavily modified TI, and I have had it overloaded at times. Fact of the matter is the 600 lb weight max is just about right for the boat in my opinion, especially a stock TI without massive sails and heavy re-enforcement. It is what it is.
Hobies decisions regarding this were probably made years ago at corporate level (great idea at the time I'm sure, but may be biting them now.
Just my opinions thats all.
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:16 pm 
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We had the same issue here in NH (the live free or die state)
We love the tandem other than the fact we cant go out as a family.
We were harrassed last summer, the officer seen us getting it all set up and thougt it was the neatest thing he had seen.
He than asked what it was called and I told him a tandem island he than instantly asked what the capacity was and I said 600lbs he than said the sticker says 2 people. He told us we could not all go out we would have to take turns. I flipped out and we packed it back up and headed home. Having to explain to the girls why we could go out was heartbreaking. They were wishing at that point that we had kept our boat.(as was I)
This is absolute (censored)! Hobie markets it as a family boat, but dont try to use it as such!
This issue really needs to be addressed.


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:30 am
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Location: Delnor Wiggins, Fl Peters Twp PA
If an owner isn't careful, those stickers can peel off....


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:12 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Perhaps a yellow sticker on each tramp stating 200 lbs capacity would do the trick (probably should be on there anyway). I'm pretty sure I could talk my way out of any situation pointing to that sticker. Just explain the boat is modular and the plaque applies to the minimum kayak configuration (which is true, the kayak itself is 600 lbs capacity, 2 passengers (two seats). Hobie cats have no seats.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:16 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
Perhaps a yellow sticker on each tramp stating 200 lbs capacity would do the trick (probably should be on there anyway). I'm pretty sure I could talk my way out of any situation pointing to that sticker. Just explain the boat is modular and the plaque applies to the minimum kayak configuration (which is true, the kayak itself is 600 lbs capacity, 2 passengers (two seats). Hobie cats have no seats.
FE


I think the addition of the capacity plate on the ama might do the trick. As is, a Boarding Officer will go by the existing capacity plate, and it is interpreted as the LOWER of Max. Persons or total weight.


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:05 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I think if our federal government gets involved, congress will pass a bill for all children under 7 to be restrained in car seats. (Just kidding).
I still think because it's a 'modular' boat just adding an official looking yellow sticker stating weight capacity 200lbs on each tramp might be enough.

Better yet remove the 2 occupent words or change them to 2 (kayak only).
Or better yet just get a couple cheap kayak seats and lash one to each tramp.

Or even better yet, cover the number '2' on the label with a sticker of the same color and font with the number '4' or better yet '6' on it. If anyone else want's a sticker just send me $200 bucks and I'll send you a sticker (just kidding, "make your own").

In all seriousness though in the last couple years I see states like Florida (and probably most other states) have enacted their own laws (in the absence of federal guidelines) regarding the manufacturers plaques (all with the greatest of intentions "boating safety"), that does put all of us TI 'modular' boat owners at risk, and Hobie in my opinion should come up with a viable solution. It shouldn't be up to us to come up with our own. Just my opinion.
FE

Edit: Kind of puts a huge damper on the family boat aspect of the boats, bringing that to a screaching halt. IMO


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:55 pm 
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I agree, something needs to be done. My post on this from a year ago advised Hobie that it was false advertising and blatantly contradictory to advertise this boat for a family of four or more and then stick a label on it that clearly states a capacity of only two people.

Yet nothing has changed. Here is a photo of the TI from Hobie's 2016 site:

Image

Now they show a family of five! In many States this happy family will be told by authorities at the dock that their children are not allowed on their new Tandem island because of the capacity sticker.


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:04 pm 
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
Yep, that's pretty much what we look like going out. 2 adults and 13, 10, and 3 year olds. And that is exactly why we were harassed by the Iowa DNR last summer. Come on Hobie help us out here!

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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:38 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
I totally get why Hobie has that CE label, as it can only be sure that the centre hull is in use (as the akas and amas are removable).

BUT, surely Hobie can also issue (for non European Common Market purposes), an official statement along the lines of

Quote:
Provided the vessel is fitted with with Hobie outrigger hulls as per specification, maximum load capacity is increased to xxx pounds (people and baggage included)


If Hobie is unwilling to do so, surely there must at least be something along these lines included alongside photos likwe that shown above.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:47 am 
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Location: Delnor Wiggins, Fl Peters Twp PA
I'm still working on the way to post a picture from my Box a/c, but absent an epiphany, here's a link to the repaired sticker..

https://app.box.com/s/as1f4zssskmgdhwz64f6t6hjv1wqngjm


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:53 pm 
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Nicely done! My daughters are going to be so excited. Thank you Bob!


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:11 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:18 am
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Location: Sydney, Australia
Mine (2011 TI) - Australia, does not say the 2 persons "or" 272lbs, it says 'Max: 2 people + luggage = 272 kg' - so there is a 'hard and fast' limit to definitely being 2 people according to the label:

Here is a photo of it:
Image

Also, it does not appear to be a sticker - no edges to pull up and pull the thing off, it is like it is printed onto the boat?? I think I will try and print out what Bob has kindly prepared - however not sure what material/method to use for that to make sure it is waterproof and will stick over the top of it, for good! (and not look dodgy to the 'inspectors').


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 Post subject: Re: TI Carrying Capacity
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:34 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
It's an IML label molded in when the hull is molded, no way to remove.
FE


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