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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:11 pm 
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Try changing the pace at which you furl? Seems the head fitting may spin and causes the issue in your video. Maybe a slower start?

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:00 pm 
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Posts: 3068
Location: Kailua 96734
Pete, does the mast topper pop on/off easily? Wobble? If the fit is wrong for some reason, yours may be binding more than others.

It's hard for us to judge here. Hobie did not demonstrate spinnaker gybing on the video, with or without the sail furled.

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:18 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
I assume from Matt's comments that the halyard needs to be slack when the reacher is in the snuffer meaning that going up wind, the slack halyard is free to get caught on the batten area without affecting the shape of the sail.

Going downwind, with reacher deployed, the halyard/backstay will be taut, so Hobie's last sentence in the instruction manual holds true - partially furl the mainsail until the batten is beneath the topper, and then unfurl if after the gybe.

(As an aside, looking at Pete's video, there seemed to be a fair bit of spare halyard at the head of the reacher. Maybe the bowline should be retied so there is much less "bitter end". I can only assume that the same might apply at the figure eight knot near the top of the sail. Maybe adjusting these two knots might give you more slack? Just a thought.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


Last edited by tonystott on Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 3068
Location: Kailua 96734
Finally viewed your video on youtube, where it played fine.

Still hard to see well, but this demonstrates that when the sock is stuffed, (with the halyard tight), the halyard will want to snag the taller AI 2015 sail batten every time. This indicates a clearance problem in front of the sail, and not at the rear stay, where most of us might predict. This presents a problem for upwind sailing/furling. You demonstrated that your halyard was very taught. If you can slack the halyard, it might relieve the problem some.

As Tony says, sailing downwind (with the halyard tight and at a much higher angle) it SHOULD interfere less with furling/gybing. Although the backstay may then start to snag the top batten. One solution is to sail with main furled a bit all the time.

On the water, wind forces will bend the mast and twist the sail, and tension the sheets in new ways, changing the math here dramatically.

Hoping to see some videos from Hobie and others demonstrating how this is ideally supposed to work, and not these slack-wind parking-lot shoots with choppy editing, trying to show an installation only.

C'mon, at least rent some big fans!! :roll: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:17 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 774
Location: Houston, TX
Jim and Pete. The entanglement problem appears to be documented as the top batten and top leech edge of the sail catching the spin halyard. The batten is stronger than the halyard. Why not create a hinge in the batten so that the batten gives way to the halyard and bends underneath the halyard when they contact. The batten can't be that expensive. You could either bend to make a hinge or cut the batten maybe 4-5 inches from the top and put it back in. This should not sacrifice a noticeable amount of mainsail power and when you go to sell the boat you just replace the batton.

If that didn't work, you just pull the top portion of the batten out where you made your bend or cut. Then just fold that top leech corner over and tape it down with sail repair tape. Now the leech has a belveled contour rather than angular. You can still return the boat back to it's original condition with the minimal cost of one batten and removal of the tape. I bet this would solve at least the issue of the unrecoverable entanglement, the biggest issue IMO.

I will try Matt's suggestion to relax the back stay to minimize the interference with the mainsail shape. That might just solve that issue. Even the older AIs have that happening, although it appears to be a lesser degree.

These options should give you a clean look and should not noticeably effect furling or speed. Just a thought.

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2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:44 am 
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Location: Houston, TX
Here is the price on the battens for the AI. $11.99

https://www.kosailing.com/hardware/kaya ... 51011.html

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm
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Location: Houston, TX
Ok I had an interesting day driveway sailing today. I played with the spinnaker and my 2012 AI. I found that the reason I was having almost no entanglement issues was because of the speed that I furl. If I furl fast, I get a RECOVERABLE entanglement every time. If slow or moderate speed, I never got the entanglement. I tend to furl at a more moderate speed (maybe because it's an older boat and doesn't furl as fast) than Pete. Maybe because I'm weaker that Pete :lol: , I don't know. Bottom line I can make this earlier model AI entangle too if I furl fast. Each time I could just back out of my furl and re-furl a bit slower slower to recover. This would not present a problem if it happened on the water and appears preventable.

Interestingly, the batten is not catching the halyard on the first swing around the mast but rather the second. The mast leech angles towards the halyard-whether there is a
batten top or not. Somehow when we furl slower the leech/main top corner is not protruding enough to engage and catch the halyard.

On the issue of the backstay distorting the mains shape when sailing upwind, Matt appears to be right, if you create slack in the backstay, the main seems unaffected by the stay.

So... it appears that I can solve everything I am experiencing by modifying me rather than the boat.

I understand some felt that this thread was getting a bit negative. But I appreciated every post on it and any in the future. I just wanted to understand what was happening before I went offshore this year. I still love the sail and would make the purchase again, no question. I am getting use to the lines and if you run the spin sheets under the bungees on the hulls sided and then tie them and tuck them behind the set, they remain taunt and out of the way, even without tramps.

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2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:45 am 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 8:53 am
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Location: Paoli Pennsylvania - East Coast USA
vetgam wrote:
.... If I furl fast, I get a RECOVERABLE entanglement...
Sounds like it is time for more driveway sailing on my part. ..... It will probably be a few days because we got 2" of snow last nite and we don't expect temps to rise into the forties for a couple more days.

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:32 pm 
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Location: Paoli Pennsylvania - East Coast USA
PeteCress wrote:
...time for more driveway sailing on my part. .....
OK... Much nicer day than the 'cast was calling for.

Spent a couple-two-three hours on this: re-installing the SpinKit and subsequent driveway sailing.

Took a series of still pics of some of the unrecoverable tangles - beginning with https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497986 ... 7555791426 (RightArrow to see the rest).

On the first tangle I was able to recover by sheeting in and re-furling a couple of times.

After that, they were all unrecoverable: the sail is just plain locked in place....cannot sheet in/unfurl and cannot furl.

Some observations:

  • It does not take a really hard pull to provoke the tangle - although that will do it. .... But having sail nice and slack so that even a modest pull on the furling line will spin the mast fast enough will do it just fine.
    .
  • Unrecoverable really is unrecoverable.... the system is just plain locked up and no amount of pulling on either line helped. ..... Once I thought I'd beat the system and disconnected the halyard from the head of the (snuffed) spinnaker, setting it swing free...... but it did not help one bit. ...... Sorry Hobie guys: this is not a recoverable situation most of the time for Yours Truly. ..... Do more testing and I predict that you will understand.
    .
  • 21" of 1/2" PVC hanging on the fore end of the mast rotator and covering the halyard seems, so far... in all the trials I have done... to make the tangles both less frequent and (so far) 100% recoverable... .... The PVC still sometimes allows the line to get caught on the batten, but - so far - it seems to somehow alter the balance of things so that the sail can be unfurled and the tangle cleared.
    .
  • I am starting to think that, even without the 21" PVC workaround, the unrecoverable tangle situation is not as heinous as it was sounding to me at first. The Reason: the locked sail is already furled about one turn, which I find is all that is needed to handle winds up to 25 mph..... so it's not like anybody is going to be out of control....and they always have the option of just letting the sail flog. ..... Still a significant nuisance factor - and it needs to be fixed.... but not as bad once one allows that the lockup occurs with at least one turn of reef in the sail.
    .
  • Whoever in Hobie is calling this a recoverable situation needs to do some volume testing with a 2015 AI - not just a few furls.... a *lot* of furls - and with the mainsheet plenty slack. ..... My contention is that they, too, will experience unrecoverable tangles
    .
  • If, after some significant volume, somebody still find the tangles recoverable; I need to determine what is different about their rig from my rig .... because I am definitely, undeniably, inarguably, irrefutably, incontestably, unquestionably, indubitably, and without doubt experiencing unrecoverable tangles..

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:30 am
Posts: 407
Location: Clearwater, Fl
Great job testing Greg and Pete. Thanks.

I'm surprised that there have been no other reviewers besides a handful of us. One TI, one older AI and two newer AI's.
NOHUHU wrote:
Hoping to see some videos from Hobie and others demonstrating how this is ideally supposed to work, and not these slack-wind parking-lot shoots with choppy editing, trying to show an installation only.

C'mon, at least rent some big fans!! :roll: :lol:

Ditto


Last edited by CaptnChaos on Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:00 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:31 am
Posts: 15
Location: Las Vegas NV
Mine just showed up today from fastlane, have it installed already! Cant wait to try it this weekend on Lake Mohave, wind prediction 13 to 15 out of the north(may be to high but I may just deploy the spinnaker and a little main). I truck top mine on my Expedition, trying to figure a short cut to disassemble, suspect I will have to leave the port rear aka attached (mounted port side close to Ama) Too many control lines on one side may be more than I can handle; so I don't have to unstring the halyard line ; When I first got the Ti in summer 2014 I thought I could load it with the Amas & Akas attached, I realized i'm not the young football player I used to be! Now I strip it down to the center hull and load the akas inside and the Amas up top after the hull is up. Much easier to do after all day sailing and a few Beers. :D
The two nylon washers were missing from the kit for the wind indicator! Anyone else notice this?
Suspect I could just use two steel washers

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Lower Colorado Basin, also Known to sail Tahoe,San Diego, Newport Beach, Dana Point

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:57 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3008
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Im a big fan. 'Hobie fan'. (lol)


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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:02 am 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 8:53 am
Posts: 716
Location: Paoli Pennsylvania - East Coast USA
uspmd1 wrote:
...Too many control lines on one side may be more than I can handle...
Suggestion: Instead of attaching the aka cheek block with the self-tapping screws, screw it to a 1" wide piece of 3/4" ply and lash it to the aka where you think it belongs. I used a couple of 1" strips of rubber cut from an automobile inner tube.

The Reason: You may find you prefer it more inboard or outboard than you initially thought and now the cheek block can be moved.

Being easily confused, I also became uncomfortable with so many lines on the right side of the boat.

What I did was to leave the hull-mounted cheek block in place on the right and move the snuffer bag/aka cheek block over to the left akas. ..... Now my deployment line is on the left but the other line is still on the right. .... I find that the cheek block/plywood works it's way out of position with repeated deployments/snuffings, but that it remains usable on a per-sailing-session basis...... and I true it up between sessions.

I am still waffling over where the snuffer bag is best located: inboard, center, or outboard.

The tension so far is between my ability to lean forward from the operator's seat to help stuff the sail into the bag and/or clear a blockage and the desire for maximum paddling/shallow-water walking around room between the bag and the hull. .... There also seems to be something around how easily the sail catches water during snuffing/deployment, but I haven't gone there yet.

Bottom Line: you don't want a permanent installation of that rear aka cheek block until you are sure you have the snuffer bag where you want it.

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2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
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eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


Last edited by PeteCress on Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:14 am 
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Location: Paoli Pennsylvania - East Coast USA
uspmd1 wrote:
When I first got the Ti in summer 2014 I thought I could load it with the Amas & Akas attached, I realized i'm not the young football player I used to be! Now I strip it down to the center hull and load the akas inside and the Amas up top after the hull is up. Much easier to do after all day sailing and a few Beers.
I find that impressive.

I had fantasies of cartopping my 2015 AI - and actually did get it up on the racks 3 times using 3 different methods.... but felt uneasy each time so I wimped out and got a trailer...... and the AI's main hull is "Only" 106#..... I can't imagine my getting a TI up there and living to tell about it.

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2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:23 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3008
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Pete:
Actually the older TI's (pre-2015) are actually pretty easy to car top (we did it for years every darn weekend). The bare hull itself weighs 100 lbs (I weighed mine), thats without the mirage drives, seats, aka bars, etc, and everything removed from inside the hull (flares, med kits, paddles, etc). Just the bare hull with no water in it. Our previous boat was an old style Oasis (2008) which weighed 90lbs (I weighed it), and was a couple feet shorter, that little extra length, and the additional hand holds the TI has makes loading the TI hull on the roof much easier than our old Oasis ever was, I actually injured myself car topping the Oasis. We always keep the AMA's off our TI until we are ready to launch and always carry them separately down to the water. When trying to roll a TI with a scupper cart with the AMA's attached has always been too much for me. With just the center hull alone it's no more difficult walkng the TI down kayak trails than it was our old Oasis, It's just when you add all the extra crap that it becomes troublesome (lol).
Keep in mind we are tandem people and were already pretty used to the extra girth all tandems have vs singles. However we discovered a long time ago I takes me less time to setup one boat vs two complete boats and get them all ready. Also when we were using singles most of the time my wife would run out of energy and I would have to tow her back to launch most of the time.
I have no idea about the newer TI's car topping wise since I don't own one.
We will be going on several long summer adventures with our camper in tow again this year with the TI on the roof for the summer. That TI being the Ultimate Tandem Island (name of the boat), with all of it's mighty sails (240 sq ft), and twin Honda outboards. I know of no complex sail boat out there you can do all that with (good luck getting a 450lb windrider 17 on your cartop (lol). Just sayin
FE


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