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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:34 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Keith:
It's possible that the AI mast being shorter and in proportion being mounted further back in the boat perhaps has the correct angle in order to create enough lift to raise the bow (that's really good news). I didn't get that with my TI (much taller mast, and mounted further forward (in proportion). I tried 4 or 5 different spinnaker designs over the years, and always had difficulty with the diving, and also had problems getting enough air in between the spinnaker and the main until I added the bow sprit (the main shadowed the spinnaker badly unless the main was furled). I was just expressing what I did to solve my problems (on my TI only, may not apply to the AI (which I have no experience on)). Also my spinnaker was much larger (maybe that's the key, not making the spin too big). I was just explaining where I had problems and issues early on, other may not get the same results. I'm sure using different cuts, and smaller spinnaker designs creates different causes and effects.
Then again I had 3 sails (including the furling jib) in that very narrow space that probably affected many factors.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:03 am 
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Tony:
I'm sure there are work arounds for everything, I was just sharing where I had serious issues on my own boat, and almost lost a finger as a result. I was just suggesting to watch for that issue possibly creeping up.
I'm not trying to kabosh Hobies spinnaker at all, I think it's a good thing, I was only trying to share some of my own hard knocks experience playing with that stuff.

FE.


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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:01 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
my observation of Hobie is they are a kind of funny bunch and don't listen to advise


We do listen and many changes are driven by user feedback. There are lots and lots of examples of that in these forms from over the years. Then again... we are a VERY experienced bunch here at designing and sailing / using our own products. There are MANY factors to be considered when designing products and making changes to existing ones, so we can't always incorporate users suggestions.

The line catching on the batten could be annoying, but easily rectified as you described. Shorten, tape or add a Velcro strap on that one.... if there is an issue. Or simply learn how to furl and deploy to prevent hang ups. Spinnakers are challenging on every boat that uses them. This is not confined to Islands for sure. People will tangle, tear and have trouble, but we have a pretty slick system with the snuffer setup. As spinnakers go... this is the easiest way to deploy and drop them.

I suspect that structurally the longer cap could have been a problem. Both in strength of the part and leverage on the mast head.

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:59 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Yea Matt I kind of regretted writing that shortly after writing it. As you know I've always been a strong supporter of Hobies, and that continues. I appreciate you guys are experts at all this, that's pretty apparent in all your products.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:37 pm 
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
Just looking to see if there are any updates. My wife is going to start asking what I would like for Xmas and I would like to tell her to get me the reacher. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:32 am 
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Subject: Spinnaker, reacher, screecher or hooter for Christmas

The Hooter (Reacher) is a roller furling, apparent-wind-generating head sail that attaches to the end of a Spinnaker Pole Assembly. I find that they are fun, easy and versatile. The sail is designed to sail to weather in light air and sail off the wind in any air. I think that a Hooter is approximately 88 sq ft for the Wave, 190-225 sq ft of 2.0-2.5 oz Mylar with light scrim reinforecement.

I also think that a furling hooter is much easier to put away when it needed.... than struggling with snuffing a spin when you need to.

One sail is more for reaching (hooter) and can even go upwind a little, and the other is for deeper down wind sailing... So you can't ask which has more perfomance... they have different purposes.

I personally like spins a little more because they make the downwind sailing alot more fun (and fast).. .The spin is very exciting when I heat it up by pointing a bit higher than dead down wind, you know... there's nothing like flying downwind... and being on the edge of disaster.

The spin works very different compaired to the main (power up by sheeting out) so it is counter intuitive and a challenge.

I've seen many beach cats that have spins... and they generally kill the hooters when we are traveling downwind...because there's generally more sail area in a spin than a hooter

That being said... hooters furl up and make dousing a snap... no bag, just furl and it is done.


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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:38 pm 
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TI_Tom wrote:
Just looking to see if there are any updates. My wife is going to start asking what I would like for Xmas and I would like to tell her to get me the reacher. :D


Now looking like February release.

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:46 pm 
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
mmiller wrote:
TI_Tom wrote:
Just looking to see if there are any updates. My wife is going to start asking what I would like for Xmas and I would like to tell her to get me the reacher. :D


Now looking like February release.


:( Now it's looking more like a Father's Day gift. Sailing season here doesn't start until about April/May anyways.

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  • Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:28 pm 
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Location: Benicia, CA
tomthouse wrote:
Subject: Spinnaker, reacher, screecher or hooter for Christmas

The Hooter (Reacher) is a roller furling, apparent-wind-generating head sail that attaches to the end of a Spinnaker Pole Assembly. I find that they are fun, easy and versatile. The sail is designed to sail to weather in light air and sail off the wind in any air. I think that a Hooter is approximately 88 sq ft for the Wave, 190-225 sq ft of 2.0-2.5 oz Mylar with light scrim reinforecement.

I also think that a furling hooter is much easier to put away when it needed.... than struggling with snuffing a spin when you need to.

One sail is more for reaching (hooter) and can even go upwind a little, and the other is for deeper down wind sailing... So you can't ask which has more perfomance... they have different purposes.

That being said... hooters furl up and make dousing a snap... no bag, just furl and it is done.


I've furled reachers, windseekers, screachers and asym spins on my F24. Furling made single handing racing possible. However, they are a far cry from "a snap" in all conditions. Screachers and Code Zero's, for example, had to be furled going downwind or they wouldn't furl very well nor stay furled when you go to weather--when racing this is an issue since if you find yourself with too much headsail up while honkin' on a close reach-you gotta fall off to furl-usually being left behind in the spray by your competitor. The issue is the torque is applied only at the bottom of the furling system and if you have a long luff, the torque doesn't reach the top until the bottom has been furled quite a few turns. Furling asym spins is even more difficult and I ended up with a pretty reliable system, but it took a lot of engineering (check out Roll-Gen; I had to create my own similar system since I did it way back in the 90s).

The Weta furls it's asymspin, it comes with a single line furler--nearly every owner has replaced that furler with a continuous line furler.

Now that I'm sailing much smaller boats with much shorter masts, I am a strong proponent of snuffing in lieu of furling. Granted, it is not likely you can snuff a stiff sailcloth successfully (or at least very often) so snuffing is probably limited to mostly downwind sails...I do snuff a jib, though, on my Triak, but it is made of soft polyester (Surlast) and needs to be replaced annually and it is only about 1 square meter--snuffing mylar (code zero material) is not likely to survive. Snuffing a spinnaker is pretty cool. No repacking after every hoist. You do have to have the boat and wind oriented correctly when snuffing a big sail--I made the mistake of trying to snuff my symspin (18' by 18' by 15') on the Getaway with the wind from the side--ended up shrimping.

Anyway, it is fun to find what works for you-but it can be pretty expensive to do trial by error.

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SeaRail 19
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Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Location: High Point, NC
"The Weta furls it's asymspin, it comes with a single line furler
--nearly every owner has replaced that furler with a
continuous line furler."

The Weta has two "spinnakers." The standard as supplied model is more like a Code 0 and is cut fairly flat, which allows it to be furled nicely. The much larger one (165 sq. ft.) is more of a true asymetrical spinnaker and has a great deal more shape. Any attempt to furl it generally results in a large "bag" at the head of the sail which blows out in any decent wind. Therefore the company suggests dropping it, running along it in the water, and then pulling it onboard and stuffing it where ever. I am looking at a snuffer tube for it.

The thing is, any large headsail that is cut flat enough to nicely and tightly furl isn't going to get you anywhere close to DDW sailing. You'll still be a good many degrees off the wind. Although, such a flat sail will also allow you to use it upwind on a close reach in lighter airs.

A fuller cut sail, along the lines of a true asymetrical spinnaker, will require being dropped or "snuffed" when not in use. It's not worth a hoot upwind but will get you a lot closer, but not all the way, to DDW.


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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:49 pm 
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Location: Benicia, CA
Tom Kirkman wrote:
"The Weta furls it's asymspin, it comes with a single line furler
--nearly every owner has replaced that furler with a
continuous line furler."

The Weta has two "spinnakers." The standard as supplied model is more like a Code 0 and is cut fairly flat, which allows it to be furled nicely. The much larger one (165 sq. ft.) is more of a true asymetrical spinnaker and has a great deal more shape. Any attempt to furl it generally results in a large "bag" at the head of the sail which blows out in any decent wind. Therefore the company suggests dropping it, running along it in the water, and then pulling it onboard and stuffing it where ever. I am looking at a snuffer tube for it.

The thing is, any large headsail that is cut flat enough to nicely and tightly furl isn't going to get you anywhere close to DDW sailing. You'll still be a good many degrees off the wind. Although, such a flat sail will also allow you to use it upwind on a close reach in lighter airs.

A fuller cut sail, along the lines of a true asymetrical spinnaker, will require being dropped or "snuffed" when not in use. It's not worth a hoot upwind but will get you a lot closer, but not all the way, to DDW.


Thanks, I didn't know they had 2--the one on my buddy's boat is the one used in one design racing. I do know that it furls "OK" with the continuous line furler and it furled sorta ok with the single line furler before he bought the other one--it almost never got completely furled with the single line furler. It is pretty big and is cut relatively full. It sails best with Apparent Wind Angle coming from just in front of amidships.

I'm sure you know this, but there is almost no reason to sail DDW--only reason that comes to mind is wanting to kick back and have a beer or the next mark is just a few boatlengths ddw away from you. A spinnaker (whether full or flat cut; sym or asym) is still a sail and creates lift when properly flown. Going DDW doesn't create lift; you only get the "barn door" push AKA "Low and Slow".

For those with little experience driving multihulls (or fast monos) with asym spins...the best technique to make it quickly downwind is to snake wake--head up to gain speed, fall off to gain distance downwind--over and over. At least for most multihulls that have max speeds in the 15-25 kt range...haven't driven anything faster than that myself and I noted that those americas cup boats pretty well just held course gybe to gybe.

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SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:58 pm 
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On a cat we keep the apparent wind at around 90 degrees for best downwind performance. The faster you go the more you can head down and visa versa. Pretty simple really. Not sure what that angle will be for the Islands flying a chute. Will be some testing to do. Then you need a reliable wind vane and that is better down low so you don't hurt your neck having to look up at it all the time. Again... on a cat you look forward and at the bridle vane... and bows all at the same time. Where to mount a vane low (in view) like that that won't get taken off buy spinnaker rigging?

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:01 pm 
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Boy, has this thread gotten off topic! The Hobie Reacher sail does not furl, at least the one Jim Czarnowski used last March at the 2015 Everglades Challenge did not. To put it away seems to be a simple line pulling the reacher sail into a snorkel bag. Here is a picture of his boat at the start.

Image


There were actually 3 of these reacher sails on the start line of the 2015 EC. All with the same design.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:14 pm 
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DDW in a multi-hull is really only useful on very light air days. Otherwise, you're almost always better off sailing a larger angle and keeping speed on. VMG will still get you to a downwind point faster if the wind is at least decent and the distance is more than very short.

The one thing I worry about with the AI and TI and this additional sail (I'll buy one for sure) is that Hobie has done a really good job with their recreational boats insofar as they are hard to get into trouble with - the sail plans aren't such that any of these boats are overpowered, even in larger winds.

I know that many people want better light air performance (so do I) but at some point guys are going to have their reachers out on a higher wind day, hit a shift or steer upwind towards a beam reach and get the shock of their lives. With an unexperienced skipper, a Weta in a mere 10 to 12 knots of wind can somersault or capsize with a screecher out on a beam reach. I can only imagine the posts here when AI and TI sailors come back in a few months and talk about how their new sails resulted in a turtled boat and want to blame Hobie for this.

You can't get something for nothing. More sail is more good, but it means the skipper better be "more good" as well.

Oh yeah - the cure for almost any pending disaster with any sort of asymetrical spinnaker is to quickly head further downwind. The sail will simply collapse.


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 Post subject: Re: Reacher
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:27 pm 
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Great points Tom and yes... as simple as we were able to make these... they are somewhat complicated to rig and use (lots of lines and a powerful sail), so these are light wind sails for beginners for sure.

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