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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:38 am 
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Not something I have heard anyone try.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:27 pm 
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Immediately post-install, I would say that snuffing the spinnaker is unacceptably difficult. .... It just doesn't want to go into that bag. .... I have to reach out and use my hand to shove it in past the re-enforcement around the halyard grommet.

What I'm hoping to hear is that, after the sail gets sufficiently crinkled/softened by use, pulling it into the snuff bag gets easier.

If not, I think there may be some larger-diameter line in my future...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:57 pm 
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Pete, what is it getting caught on? I had tended to think that the "mouth" would work better if not lying flat, but will wait and see, just as you suggest. Lightweight sail cloth definitely tends to soften up with use.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:34 am 
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tonystott wrote:
...what is it getting caught on?...
Mainly the circular re-enforcement patch around whichever grommet gets pulled in first.

Taking it "Down The Shore" (New Jersey-speak for "To The Beach") today, so it will get some exercise being deployed/snuffed and maybe we will see some improvement.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:46 am 
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Has anybody come up with a way to leave the snuffer bag more-or-less in place when akas are folded for transport?

Right now I am un-clipping the snap connectors and moving it to the hull where the beach wheels hold down the back part and a bungee (hopefully...) keeps the front down out of the slipstream: https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497986 ... 4615188754

The dingus on top of the mast and it's lines get stuffed into the bag that Hobie supplied for the sail and then stuffed in between the throw cushion and a life preserver in the rear cargo area - clipped, of course to the bungees: https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497986 ... 3447951282

I feel some needlework on the bag coming on, but can't figure out what needs to be done.

The joker in the deck would seem to be the rigid nature of the plastic throat..... so maybe speeding up the disconnect/reconnect process is the way to go.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:23 pm 
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PeteCress wrote:
tonystott wrote:
...what is it getting caught on?...
Mainly the circular re-enforcement patch around whichever grommet gets pulled in first.

Taking it "Down The Shore" (New Jersey-speak for "To The Beach") today, so it will get some exercise being deployed/snuffed and maybe we will see some improvement.


On the TI, I noticed a little different stuffing characteristics depending whether the halyard line is threaded underneath or on top of the sail on the bottom hole. On the TI, you might want to try both ... Like the video on the AI shows, on the TI, I think it is better to have the halyard line go on top of the the sail when threading through the first hole in the sail. This means the halyard line will be "inside" the fat portion of the sail when the spinnaker is deployed to port. I believe this will also give you additional slack for the halyard line. I think the sail is also easier to stuff in this configuration.

The first time I went out, I could not stuff the sail at all with out manually helping it. The second trip, I only had to help it a few times.. I think the sail does get easier to stuff as you use it.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:20 pm 
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Couple of things.

One, it does get easier with each time. I do wrap the snuffing line around my hand and then pull it in. Makes it easy to get that first sail patch in the bag, the rest follows easily. I normally do not wrap sheets around any body parts when sailing but I think your safe with this line. (Guess it depends on what body part :shock: )

Second, when I set up my sail I noticed that the block directly behind the snuffer provided some unnecessary resistance. When passing through the block, the line runs around the pulley and then under a piece of plastic before running forward to the cleat at the crossbar. I found that if I just skipped the plastic piece on the block altogether and run the line outside of it, then there was less resistance. It doe not make a difference with function of the block or line. Try it and see if that helps you too.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:32 pm 
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Took the AI with new SpinKit down the shore today for some bay sailing.

Ran into the infamous "line twisted around sail/mast" problem, only this time it was nothing to do with the #1 batten hanging up on the Mast Tip Rotator.. .... That batten was trimmed to where it's flush with the sail - maybe even a little bit inside - and I could stand back and see that it was not hanging up.

Instead it seems to be that the Mast Tip Rotator does not rotate freely. .... To be sure, it will rotate, but there is enough resistance there make it try to spin with the mast and wrap the (inherantly somewhat-slack) halyard line around the mast when the sail is furled or un-furled.

I started to take it apart - figuring there must be some sand, salt, or other crud in there - but immediately saw that there were many, many very small nylon (?) bearing balls in a bearing cup around the outer rim.

Didn't manage to lose any of them, and closed it up ASAP.


My initial impression is that the Mast Tip Rotator is insufficiently tolerant of foreign material - which would be a fatal flaw given the intended operating environment.


My attempted workaround, instead of cleaning the thing out (if, indeed, it is dirty - strictly an assumption on my part...), will be aimed at making it function even when somewhat jammed-up...... The rationale being that it *is* going to get jammed up and the consequences of that on the water are sufficiently negative....


First thing that comes to mind is FusionEng's suggestion to hang a certain length of thin PVC tubing from the front and back of the Mast Tip Rotator..... long enough so the halyeard line running through it does not catch high enough on the mast/sail to keep wrapping.

Second thing is tensioning the halyard fore and aft - giving it some resistance to wrapping.

I can already see that I want a jam cleat on the rear aka so the halyard can be cleated there to prevent an accidental deployment of the spinnaker if/when something snags the halyard up front.

Once I install that jam cleat, the next step will be to figure out how to apply the same functionality up front: i.e. with the line cleated in the rear and cleated in the front, the Mast Tip Rotator will be held in place and the halyard will be more resistant to wrapping around the sail/mast. .... Seems like this will depend on the amount of stretch in the system and on the leverage available by virtue of the fore-aft overhang of the Mast Tip Rotator..... Hopefully there will be enough leverage there.

Third thing that comes to mind is 6 or 8mm halyard line instead of the hand-cutting stuff that comes with the SpinKit. Yeah... more weight aloft.... but easier on the hands and, I am hoping, maybe less inclined to wrap just by virtue of it's greater weight/mass/stiffness...... Also, something like Marlowe prestretch will reduce the stretch in the system - making it more likely to prevent wrapping once it is cinched down tight fore-and-aft.


Segueing into the idea of making the Mast Tip Rotator less prone to being sticky....

Fourth thing that comes to mind is above my pay grade: extending the rear of the Mast Tip Rotator so the trailing line exerts more leverage...... maybe the front too...

Fifth thing - also above my pay grade - is changing the ball bearing in the Mast Tip Rotator to use much larger balls or even rollers. .... Seems to me like the bigger the balls, the more tolerant the bearing will be to crud.... and with rollers, even more so. ...... Certainly the teeny little things in there now don't look very tolerant to me.

Am I the only one?

What think Greater Minds Than Mine?

Edit 2016 03-26 09:08:
I think FusionEng's second idea goes first on my list: Add a dedicated backstay to keep the Mast Tip Rotator from rotating. .... As an aside, I note that FusionEng's Mast Tip Roator design has the extra length/leverage that I was going on about...

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
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Last edited by PeteCress on Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:07 am, edited 12 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:48 pm 
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CaptnChaos wrote:
It would be nice to hear from other 2015/2016 AI'2's with it installed to see what their tangling experiences are. Any ideas are also appreciated.
Hold the Mast Tip Rotator in your hand and try rotating the cup that the mast tip sits in.

Does it rotate freely?

Mine does not and that seems to be the genesis of my halyard-wrapping problem.

FWIW my snuffer bag is located all the way outboard on the right tramp - so I do not think that moving yours will help.

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:27 pm 
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I don't have Hobies system, but have been running a very similar system for 6 yrs now with almost no issues. Actually nearly all the components are the original components I installed back in spring 2010. As I get new boats I just transfer everything to the new boat (we are on our 3rd TI now), and use the boat with all it's sails pretty much every weekend year round.
Once you get it right It's an extremely reliable system, there are always minor tweaks with any system. As an example on my system I also had difficulty with the mast topper rotating when I tried to furl. I kept the rear stay design with the big loop (just like Hobies setup) for my spinnaker, but I added a second rear fixed rear stay line (with a clip on each end so it can be easily attached and removed, (obviously on the Hobie mast topper an extra eyelet would need to be added). I then ran both lines thru some 3/8" dia PVC tubing (so it can't snag on the mainsail). The second rear stay serves two purposes, it prevents the top of the mast from tilting forward on a downwind (which causes the bow to dive), it also works as an anti rotation device for the mast topper, in the event the halyard is loose, and the spinnaker is not pulled tight (aka snuffed in the bag).
Bear in mind though my system is a little different because I have a completely separate second halyard system for my various jib sails, so I kind of need that second fixed stay line in the back anyway (especially when using the wing jib).

Another thing about those PVC pipes, you have a lot of really long lines up there, and when you drop the mast all those lines have a tendency to get tangled up into everything. They can't tangle inside the tubes, what I do is place the mast topper on the top of the sail and lift it vertical, I then grab the tube with the ropes in it, then just clip one clip at the back of the boat and I'm good to go. All the tubes and lines just lay in the boat for transport (I never disconnect anything except that one clip). This also makes it really simple to drop the mast on low bridges). I just release the halyards, unclip that clip and drop the whole works to the deck. When done I raise the mast back up, and pull both the jib and the spin up on their separate halyards and cleat them (FYI my spinnaker runs on a rotofurler vs a snuffer sock, but thats the only difference).
I'm not trying to confuse or contradict anyone, I'm just describing what worked well for me on a similar system, take it what it's worth (nothing), just ideas that all.
Just tryin to help
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:18 am 
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I must be guilty of under-thinking stuff but When my kit arrives next week or so, I plan to
1) Furl the mainsail before snuffing the spinnaker. Can't see how the backstay/halyard can wrap around the mast then
2) Shorten the top mainsail batten
3) Add a stopper knot a few inches forward of the mast topper, to enable the mainsail to more easily slide under a taut backstay, and to prevent the mast bending too far forwards.
Also, I want to design some means of lifting the rear of the snuffer mouth a few inches, to make it easier to swallow the spinnaker. (First thought...lightweight pvc tube running outside the snuffer from the rear of the mouth piece back to the rear of the sock)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:04 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
... I added a second rear fixed rear stay line (with a clip on each end so it can be easily attached and removed....
I like that a lot better than my off-the-cuff idea of prestretch for the entire sheet plus jam cleats.

I think I will try that one today - as soon as local boat store opens....


Edit 2016 03-27 10:43:

The question arises: what happens in a heavy-air gust when the load that would normally be dissapated by the mast's bending is applied to the Mast Tip Rotator and, through the rear stay, to the stern anchor point which is now shared by the mainsheet, the spinnaker halyard, and the rear stay.

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


Last edited by PeteCress on Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:53 am 
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tonystott wrote:
I must be guilty of under-thinking stuff but When my kit arrives next week or so, I plan to
1) Furl the mainsail before snuffing the spinnaker. Can't see how the backstay/halyard can wrap around the mast then


Tony, my entanglement does not occur when snuffing the spinnaker. It occurs long after the snuffing when I later furl the main. I believe the halyard side of the line is becoming lax after sailing around and then when I furl the main the top batten catches the halyard line on the first twist around. I have not seen this happen, I just know I don't have an issue until I furl the main when returning to the launch site. You may not need to furl the main before snuffing. I have not trimmed ant battens yet so I don't have anything to offer on that.

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2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:18 am 
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vetgam wrote:
tonystott wrote:
I must be guilty of under-thinking stuff but When my kit arrives next week or so, I plan to
1) Furl the mainsail before snuffing the spinnaker. Can't see how the backstay/halyard can wrap around the mast then


Tony, my entanglement does not occur when snuffing the spinnaker. It occurs long after the snuffing when I later furl the main. I believe the halyard side of the line is becoming lax after sailing around and then when I furl the main the top batten catches the halyard line on the first twist around. I have not seen this happen, I just know I don't have an issue until I furl the main when returning to the launch site. You may not need to furl the main before snuffing. I have not trimmed ant battens yet so I don't have anything to offer on that.

I think you missed my point Pete. By furling the main FIRST, the backstay/halyard will be tensioned, so would be unlikely to get wrapped around the mast.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:53 am 
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tonystott wrote:
.... By furling the main FIRST, the backstay/halyard will be tensioned, so would be unlikely to get wrapped around the mast.
I have the whole thing apart right now, so I cannot try that.

But my recollection is that the halyard is never really tensioned - it always has at least a foot of slop in it.

That slop is part of the reason I want to add a jam on the rear aka next to the cheek block and something else (undetermined as yet) in front.

The other (actually the main) reason for the jam cleat on the rear aka is to guard against accidental deployment should the halyard snag on something... but it's other function - in conjunction with whatever I come up for the fore part - would be to put tension on the halyard.

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Pre-September 2015 cradles
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