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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:29 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Jim:
You might be able to replace that long stainless rod with one of those fiberglass pultrusions at Home depot I mentioned earlier. Just thinking out loud here, the fiberglass pultrusion is flexible and will bend down some when you are actively pulling on the spinnaker halyard to deploy the spinnaker. I'm thinking fiberglass pultrusion will bend under load but always returns to straight, where the stainless rod once it bends it's done. I'm just thinking the force needed to get the spinnaker out of the bag might be more than that 1/4" stainless rod can handle. You know what my mast topper looks like, it sticks back about two feet, my first version was 1/2" dia steel rod and I bent that under load, and ended up having to add a cable truss to the topper, just saying the strain on that rod will be pretty high in use.
My thought is using the fiberglass pultrusion as a spring (kind of like a chain tightener on a bike chain) to keep the rear stay line tight and pulled out of the way even with the mast tilted back a little, like when your on an upwind. Actually you were the one who noticed how loose my rear stay got when on an upwind when you rode with me. I think the rear stay only gets tangled when it is loose. The pulltrusion would also keep the rear stay line clear of the main when tacking.
Just tryin to help here.
FE


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:57 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Jim: You might be able to replace that long stainless rod with one of those fiberglass pultrusions at Home depot
Bob, I'm one of those old guys who take pride in building stuff with the junk they have laying around in the garage. I happened to have a bunch of stainless rod and wasn't sure it would work but it worked surprisingly well. You notice it's only on the back of the topper because the bending forces are more on the front. I may break down and spring for a fiberglass protusion in the final version. Thanks for the tip.

Also, I believe IslandMutant with his heavily modified adventure island in the everglades challenge used what looked like a fiberglass protrusion to keep his back stay lines free.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:32 am 
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Yea thats one thing I love about the TI's is you can modify the daylights out of it turning the TI into complex and very capable sail boat, then on days you just want simplicity you just leave all the extra's off, then better yet if you need just a kayak ( btw...a very nice and fast kayak) for skinny water, you have that too. There is truly nothing out their that can match this now or on anyones drawing boats.
The best part is we are campers with a travel trailer and always like to take the boat along with us, since the trailer takes up the hitch, we are able to just throw the TI on the roof and use the boat for pretty much anything we run into.
The TI sets the bar as the most versatile family SUV on the market today in my opinion.
In our case we never know what we are going to be using the boat for next.

Needless to say I like my TI and use the daylights out of it.

My only wish from Hobie is for them to fully realize and understand just exactly what they invented and just how important it is. By exploiting the TI's tri-power capabilities (tripower meaning.. Human power, sail power, and supplimental propulsion (either hybrid gas or solar/battery/electric)).
The Hobie TI is the by a long shot the most fuel efficient, versatile, and very fast human powered craft available on the market today, and Hobie invented it. By utilizing all the available power sources simultaneously the craft is capable regardless of actual wind and sailing conditions, in other words it is just as capable in no wind as it is in moderate winds and the actual natural wind direction means very little, in other words it's the only boat out there that is just as capable sailing directly into the wind as it is to any other point of sail. To date there has only been one small article written about it in Giz magazine sometime in 2011. I honestly feel even Hobie doesn't fully understand the ramifications of their invention.
Ok I'll get off my soapbox now.
FE

Here is the video from Giz magazine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=241QmxFcbuc


And here is the article: http://www.gizmag.com/evolve-electric-m ... yak/14106/


Last edited by fusioneng on Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:31 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
I think the rear stay only gets tangled when it is loose.
I started out thinking it was the rear stay on mine, but after I added the PVC to the rear and tested, it turned out that it was the front...... and looseness played no part because it was happening when the system was really taut - as in I could twang it like a base fiddle string.

With mine, the precipitating factor is the mainsail being loose - i.e. not under any tension from the mainsheet. .... Halyard was wrapping around the mainsail/mast almost every time a reef was attempted - and it was not recoverable.... the rig was stuck in the tangled state until I could disconnect the spinnaker halyard, pull the mast, and untangle the halyard from the #1 batten.

Heaven forbid that should happen to somebody while out on the water in heavy air. ..... Ugly, ugly, ugly....

Current version is 21" of 1/2" PVC fore and aft, connected to the Mast Top Rotator by nylon fishing line. ..... Still gets tangled if the main is loose and I pull the reefing line hard/fast enough, but now it is quickly recoverable by pulling on the mainsheet/un-reefing the mainsail - because the PVC keeps it from wrapping around the #1 batten.... so far, at least... maybe 10-12 tests to date.

That being said, I expect to hear the rear extension calling out to me after I experience a few tacks/gybes with the spinnaker halyard overlapping the mainsail so much.

Not having any luck finding a contact address for PenguinMan, but I have been looking at pix from the 2015 EC and it does not look to me like he has any modifications up there on the Mast Rotator Tip. OTOH, I found one pic with his sail in a seemingly-familiar state: https://www.facebook.com/PedalPowerToEn ... =3&theater

I also hear 6mm halyard line calling out to me - although I am not sure how well it will travel through the Mast Top Rotator pulleys.... gotta get some el-cheapo 1/4" Home Depot line and breadboard it.

Going to take the current iteration to a small local lake this afternoon and see what shakes.

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:47 am 
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CaptnChaos,

How did you go about making the bracket to hold the pulley on to your railblaza starport adapter?

I would love to do the same!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:22 am 
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PeteCress wrote:
... the rig was stuck in the tangled state until I could disconnect the spinnaker halyard, pull the mast, and untangle the halyard from the #1 batten. Heaven forbid that should happen to somebody while out on the water in heavy air. ..... Ugly, ugly, ugly....
Image
And sometimes you just don't have time to spare ... :o

joemoglia wrote:
CaptnChaos, How did you go about making the bracket to hold the pulley on to your railblaza starport adapter? I would love to do the same!
Image
Just a little piece of scrap metal that fit the starport adapter perfectly. Drill a couple holes, trim the ends, and it works.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:14 pm 
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PeteCress wrote:
Going to take the current iteration to a small local lake this afternoon and see what shakes.
Seems to be working acceptably.

Probably should have stayed on shore.... Going out today was not the smartest thing I have ever done ...... Was just another nice, albeit gusty, day when I put in at about 13:00 - but things got "Interesting" as the afternoon wore on.

Gusts to 40+, plenty of 30-35: https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497986 ... 2988889202

At times was flirting with hull speed under about 2 meters of sail (from Windsurfing, I know what a 3-meter sail looks like... and I had nowhere near that up in the gusts).

Did plenty of panic reefing with no adverse effects - although I would have liked to have it wrap at least once to satisfy myself that it is recoverable in real-world conditions - as opposed to on the trailer sitting in my front yard with little or no wind.

I am hopeful that the 21" sleeves of 1/2" PVC are going to be a successful workaround.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:37 pm 
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I started out following the SpinKit installation instructions to the letter.

After a couple days use, I started thinking I'd like to not have it taking up space on my only tramp (which is on the starboard.).

Moved the snuffer bag to the port side, but left the long run of halyard line on the right.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497986 ... 2407244626

I like it: two fewer lines on the right - which was getting kind of busy; snuffer bag is easier to mount/dismount without the tramp in the way; and I have my tramp back again.

Also did a little needlework on the snuffer bag to make it easier to mount/dismount: 2" straps/snap connectors, moved snap connectors to the rear, threaded webbing so the straps tighten by pulling backwards when I am standing behind the rear aka.


Unsolicited Advice #1074: If you are doing the install, instead of screwing that cheek block into the aka right away, screw it to a skinny piece of 3/4" plywood and lash it to the aka with a 1" wide strip of automobile tire innertube.

That way, you can try each side and also experiment with moving the snuffer bag closer to/further away from the hull.

I am starting to lean towards having the snuffer bag as close to the hull as possible - yet still leave room to paddle.... the rationale being that it should be easier to clear any jams and/or help the sail into the bag when needed.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497986 ... 0013670962

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:43 am 
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Pete, thanks for all your testing and reporting the results here. Although I am now of the mindset that you're certifiably insane for going out and testing a spinnaker in 40 mph winds PLUS you were disappointed that you weren't able to tangle in those conditions.

After numerous configurations and moving the snuffer all around the boat (even on the bow) I decided it's time to sell this spinnaker because I absolutely dislike it. I didn't use the 21" pieces of pvc like Pete but I don’t want to do that. No matter what configuration or tautness of the halyard, I experienced tangling of the lines and the mainsail and it always put me in a bad mood while sailing.

I think this may primarily pertain to the new AI's as the new AI's #1 sail baton makes the sail bow outward at the top of the mast when furled.  It acts like a hand to grab the halyard line when furling.  The old AI's sail would furl fairly tight. Not sure about the TI's. Snuffing is a pain also. Sometimes it snuffs, often it snags. And if I didn't have my custom rear extension to keep the rear halyard line off the mainsail I'm sure I there would have been more issues.

Anyone who wants a used AI spinnaker pm me. $500 and you pay shipping.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:34 am 
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CaptnChaos wrote:
... you're certifiably insane for going out and testing a spinnaker in 40 mph winds PLUS you were disappointed that you weren't able to tangle in those conditions.
It wasn't quite that bad. ..... Never even *thought* about deploying the spinnaker. .... My problems have always arisen with the spinnaker snuffed (although, come to think of it, there seems to be no reason why they should not occur with it deployed)..... So my testing that day was around reefing/unreefing the main sail with the spinnaker snuffed.

Quote:
...No matter what configuration or tautness of the halyard, I experienced tangling of the lines and the mainsail...
That makes me feel better about my own experience. .... On one hand, I figured Hobie must have tested this thing extensively and it must be User Error on my part... but, on the other hand, I kept having the problem.

Quote:
I think this may primarily pertain to the new AI's as the new AI's #1 sail baton makes the sail bow outward at the top of the mast when furled.  It acts like a hand to grab the halyard line when furling. 
One more point of agreement.... And I think the added centrifugal force when the sail is furled rapidly aggravates the problem - making the batten stick out more.

Quote:
Snuffing is a pain also. Sometimes it snuffs, often it snags.
I am still trying to figure out what the guy in the demo vid was doing to make it look so trouble-free. ..... To-date, I have never, ever, not even once - had the sail go into the snuffer bag without the two patches having to be pushed through the entrance or some *major* pulling (as in gloves and a solid stance required) on the halyard. .... And I am coming from a windsurfing background - so it's not like my hands/arms are weak..... When I quit last year, I had a grip like a silverback gorilla...

The fix options there would seem fairly straightforward: Reduce the diameter of the re-enforecment patches on the sail, enlarge the diameter of the plastic throat on the snuffer bag, and/or supply larger-diameter halyard line.

But, as above, I am still experiencing a degree of cognitive dissonance over why you and I are experiencing these problems and Hobie apparently did not during their testing..... and ... why this forum is not flooded with people telling similar stories.

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2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:59 am 
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Sorry to hear that Jim. I have been out of commission when it comes to sailing due to a car wreck but should be out on the water testing the spinnaker more in about 10 days.

I have a 2012 AI and had the opportunity it to sail twice with it so far. Twice I had the halyard portion of the line wrap around the main's mast while furling the main. I never experienced it wrapping around the battons thus preventing furling of the main. Experimented many times in the driveway without a tangle. I wonder if the height of the new 2015+ masts/sails is coming into play. I will be sure to post up if i ever get a true halyard line - battons entanglement.

You could always consider keeping the sail aBandon the circular line rigging and just go to a self furler or even rig it like I have rigged my jib. My jib doesn't have to be furled into the main, but that would work. But, my rigging would allow you to take down the spin while sitting in the cockpit, bunch it up and put it below or behind a bungee at the front of the cockpit near the base of the mast which is what I do with the jib if I want to separate the jib from the main.

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2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:00 am 
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PeteCress wrote:
Has anybody come up with a way to leave the snuffer bag more-or-less in place when akas are folded for transport?
FWIW, I've got a method.

  • Mount the snuffer bag on akas that lack a trampoline.
    .
  • Replace the existing 1" webbing with much longer 2" webbing. (granted that extending the existing 1" webbing would technically do the job.... but the 2" webbing and connectors are so much stronger and so much more ergonomic that it's a no-brainer to upgrade to 2")
    .
  • Move the snap connectors to a point about 2' fore of the aft aka
    .
  • Thread the snap connectors so that pulling the free end of the webbing aft tightens up the webbing.
    .
  • If the webbing is long enough, you can now simply loosen the webbing and the akas will fold
    .
  • When rigging, after the akas have been unfolded, you can stand behind the aft aka, reach forward,
    and easily slide the snuffer bag into position and pull on the loose ends of the webbing to tighten it.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497986 ... 7051386146

I wimped out on the fore connections to the plastic throat..... Was afraid to mess with the existing rivets.... So I just sewed the 2" webbing to the 1" stuff coming out of Hobie's itty-bitty connectors. https://picasaweb.google.com/1081497986 ... 0723627330

Next iteration will be direct attachment of the 2" webbing to the plastic snuffer throat...... With the hopes that two sets of 2" connectors will support somebody's body weight if/when they manage to sit on the snuffer bag.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:25 am 
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vetgam wrote:
I have been out of commission when it comes to sailing due to a car wreck
That's unfortunate, sorry to hear that !
vetgam wrote:
You could always consider keeping the sail abandon the circular line rigging and just go to a self furler or even rig it like I have rigged my jib.
I already tried that. One of my attempts used a custom topper I built where the back stay wasn't threading through the whole system but just a stay. It did not help and when I rigged the boat the back stay would start off taut. Once the main unfurled, it sagged. On that experiment I had the snuffer on the bow which was convenient and out of the way. At least until I had to crawl out there to manually snuff.

Even though tests in the driveway are different than out on the water with wind blowing everything around I recommend everyone who installs these do a fair bit of furling and unfurling in their driveway before heading out.
PeteCress wrote:
But, as above, I am still experiencing a degree of cognitive dissonance over why you and I are experiencing these problems and Hobie apparently did not during their testing..... and ... why this forum is not flooded with people telling similar stories.
Like the twilight zone ... I'm puzzled too


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:33 am 
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CaptnChaos wrote:
PeteCress wrote:
But, as above, I am still experiencing a degree of cognitive dissonance over why you and I are experiencing these problems and Hobie apparently did not during their testing..... and ... why this forum is not flooded with people telling similar stories.
Like the twilight zone ... I'm puzzled too
But I temper that with a lifelong experience of complaining about problems and having the sources of the problems tell me "Well, you must be the only one...."..... only to find out later that, indeed, I was the only one complaining - but many, many others were having the same problems.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:39 am 
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I'm still waiting on delivery, being told May. Maybe there just aren't very many people that have actually gotten out on the water yet? Does any one know how many Hobie shipped to users (as opposed to distributors?) in the initial order?

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