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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:26 am 
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Spook wrote:
vetgam wrote:
The new sailors in the bunch will appriciate you putting so much condensed information in one well organized article. Thanks!


Tony see this, this is nice, no BS just a thank you for the effort I put in to help others. Positive attitude makes it worth it.



Nice Job Spook, Many people new to sailing will benefit from such a simple,clear sailing aid. Anything we can do to "Demystify" sailing to new people is a step in the right direction. Good Job.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:58 am 
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I have posted this a few times in the past, and appreciate the efforts of Scott Gee, who originally posted this on the Northern California Kayak Anglers forum back ib July 2012

Scott's take on the sailing dead downwind issue is that it is largely a carry-over from yachts having booms on their mainsails, and the danger of potential damage caused by an accidental gybe. Of course, with no boom, this danger does not exist with Hobie Islands.

http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=0390c61ddc89920ddee50bd81c497706&action=dlattach;topic=39153.0;attach=163177

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:46 am 
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Thanks Spook. Great article. I read it on your Queensland Hobie site. For others there's lots of good info on his site.

I also think due to the Islands lack of a boom, running square is very much a dead area/air.....


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:25 am 
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colinm wrote:
Thanks Spook. Great article. I read it on your Queensland Hobie site. For others there's lots of good info on his site.

I also think due to the Islands lack of a boom, running square is very much a dead area/air.....

Colin, haven't you ever been running dead downwind and surfing on waves during the gusts? To make it even easier, simply file a 1/4" x 1/4" notch in the end of your Hobie paddle, and catch a knot of the little blue string on the clew of the sail. You can then hold the sail in a great shape for running downwind. Cost? zero...

The wind when heading downwind is anything but dead, and to call it that is ridiculous, and will be even more ridiculous when you can fly a Hobie reacher on one side and the main on the other. The thing will fly in heavier winds.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:02 pm 
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Dead Air explanation as some of you, Tony do not understand sailing. When you sail dead downwind you are being pushed by the wind, There is no airflow over the sail so we do not generate the same forces we do when we sail with the wind flowing over both surfaces of the sail. So to sail dead downwind means you are just being pushed along. We call this area dead down wind.... Not because the air is dead, the course we are sailing is dead downwind. If you sail a bit higher than dead downwind you will allow the wind to flow over the sail and you will generate a bit more force on the sail and go faster. This is sailing basics and common terminology throughout the sailing world.

If you take the time to read the whole page on my website you will have understood this but if you one of those that just reads a post and starts adding un educated comments you will just confuse everyone and make a mountain out of a nothing.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:18 pm 
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Spook wrote:
Dead Air explanation as some of you, Tony do not understand sailing. When you sail dead downwind you are being pushed by the wind, There is no airflow over the sail so we do not generate the same forces we do when we sail with the wind flowing over both surfaces of the sail. So to sail dead downwind means you are just being pushed along. We call this area dead down wind.... Not because the air is dead, the course we are sailing is dead downwind. If you sail a bit higher than dead downwind you will allow the wind to flow over the sail and you will generate a bit more force on the sail and go faster. This is sailing basics and common terminology throughout the sailing world.

If you take the time to read the whole page on my website you will have understood this but if you one of those that just reads a post and starts adding un educated comments you will just confuse everyone and make a mountain out of a nothing.


Of course, all the above explanation goes out the window once the wind speed exceeds the hull's maximum speed. There is NO "dead air" going downwind unless there is no wind. "Dead down wind" is not the same as "dead air".

Newer readers might wonder why I am critical of details in spook's posts.

It will be a long time before his credibility will recover in my eyes after he claimed in this forum,, in February 2013, that he had been
Quote:
AVERAGING 10.27 knots for 18:15 minutes


My BS meter broke upon reading that (unless his AI had an outboard he didn't mention), so I tend to treat his other posts with caution, just in case his smooth presentation disguises other information which might mislead newbies, just like this dead air BS.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:05 pm 
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tonystott wrote:

Of course, all the above explanation goes out the window once the wind speed exceeds the hull's maximum speed. There is NO "dead air" going downwind unless there is no wind. "Dead down wind" is not the same as "dead air".

Newer readers might wonder why I am critical of details in spook's posts.

It will be a long time before his credibility will recover in my eyes after he claimed in this forum,, in February 2013, that he had been
Quote:
AVERAGING 10.27 knots for 18:15 minutes


My BS meter broke upon reading that (unless his AI had an outboard he didn't mention), so I tend to treat his other posts with caution, just in case his smooth presentation disguises other information which might mislead newbies, just like this dead air BS.


Tony. Point of order. The article is there to help new owners understand the art of sailing. Which it does very well.
Why are you stooping to childish behavioral comments to discredit it.
Take it for what it is and please desist from further comments.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:22 pm 
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Thank you for your opinion

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:06 am 
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tonystott wrote:
colinm wrote:
Thanks Spook. Great article. I read it on your Queensland Hobie site. For others there's lots of good info on his site.

I also think due to the Islands lack of a boom, running square is very much a dead area/air.....

Colin, haven't you ever been running dead downwind and surfing on waves during the gusts? To make it even easier, simply file a 1/4" x 1/4" notch in the end of your Hobie paddle, and catch a knot of the little blue string on the clew of the sail. You can then hold the sail in a great shape for running downwind. Cost? zero...

The wind when heading downwind is anything but dead, and to call it that is ridiculous, and will be even more ridiculous when you can fly a Hobie reacher on one side and the main on the other. The thing will fly in heavier winds.


Hi Tony, I've fitted tweakers to get better sail shape for what you mention above, but I generally don't run directly down wind as I've found being a few degrees off to feel a bit faster.
And I'm using a T handle paddle so can't do the paddle trick.....

Happy sailing all!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:16 am 
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Hopefully we can all agree dead down is the slowest point of sail. The speed is in the reaches, the middle of the spectrum. If you go too high or too low you lose speed. This is fact.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:31 pm 
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Hogman wrote:
tonystott wrote:

Of course, all the above explanation goes out the window once the wind speed exceeds the hull's maximum speed. There is NO "dead air" going downwind unless there is no wind. "Dead down wind" is not the same as "dead air".

Newer readers might wonder why I am critical of details in spook's posts.

It will be a long time before his credibility will recover in my eyes after he claimed in this forum,, in February 2013, that he had been
Quote:
AVERAGING 10.27 knots for 18:15 minutes


My BS meter broke upon reading that (unless his AI had an outboard he didn't mention), so I tend to treat his other posts with caution, just in case his smooth presentation disguises other information which might mislead newbies, just like this dead air BS.


Tony. Point of order. The article is there to help new owners understand the art of sailing. Which it does very well.
Why are you stooping to childish behavioral comments to discredit it.
Take it for what it is and please desist from further comments.


Tony how about a Race, lets see if you can do more than bag the (censored) out of people :)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm 
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Spook, Tony is not talking about a race, he is simply pointing out a peculiarity of your description of sailing "Dead Air" straight down wind. It would be easy enough to fix with a more appropriate diagram of points of sail.

Keith

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:09 pm 
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It takes a very powerful sail and rig to actually get on top of the waves when you are running directly with them.

It takes a lot of pressure behind the sail when all air in front of it is dead air, because you're not using it as a foil just as a sled.

Catamarans/Trimarans are known for sailing on reaches, in general. They hate going dead down because they can't plane out going dead down... without a plane you are limited to your wave length, and your wave length gets chopped a lot shorter than 16' of my AI when the waves are running with me and messing up my own vessel's wave length.

It might feel faster to some, but most likely because they're feeling the surging of the boat slowing and speeding. Not because of actually moving faster.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:52 am 
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You guys do realise the diagram comes from Hobie, maybe we need to speak to them or not worry about a couple of words so much and realise it just means it's not the fastest place to sail. Why even worry about it. I won't sleep again tonight with all this. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:40 am 
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The diagram does not come from the Hobie Island literature. If you simply Google "points of sail" you do not see any diagram like that. That is what Tony and myself are complaining about. How difficult is it to change your write up to a more traditional points-of-sail diagram, after all, this is a write up for beginners, right?

Keith

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