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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 8:19 am 
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Location: Benicia, CA
I'm not sure why the kit includes a backstay. Anytime you put a backstay on a boat that has a square top mainsail, you will get the mainsail fouled.

Wouldn't it make more sense to pull the spin halyard from in front?

Is the mast so fragile that it needs the stabilization of the backstay?

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R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:57 am 
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If pulled from in front without a backstay, your likely to put the mast topper off. The setup would need a major redesign to accommodate. These masts have broken with the forces of the main only. I believe the backstay is needed. When the spin is out, you feel the force and I would not want the mast subjected to that without the backstay. With all these sails, the mast bending is unnerving sometimes.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:05 am 
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Location: Benicia, CA
Ok, thanks. Makes me happy my mast is carbon on my triak.

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SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:06 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
I think there are several things at play here... The unstayed carbon mast bends through an incredibly large arc (have as look at the video posted by yakass), and I suspect if both the halyard and spinnaker were both on the same side the forces of them both pulling together would have been too much (bearing in mind that the =halyard would need to be well clear of the rotating mast), so a backstay would have been needed anyway. Here, the backstay is eliminated, ass the top of the halyard >becomes< the backstay.

You are correct about the top of the mainsail fouling on the backstay, but this is not a problem going upwind (especially after trimming the long batten to make it flush with the sail) as the very loose backstay just flops over with thee mainsail, not interfering with its shape. Downwind,. it is no big issue to partially furl the mainsail until the top batten fits inside the backstay triangle.

I like that I can pull on the one line to deploy or douse the spinnaker and the system works well.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


Last edited by tonystott on Thu May 19, 2016 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 2:57 pm 
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Location: Benicia, CA
I apologize if my comment was taken poorly, I didn't mean to disparage the AI/TI. Heck, I almost bought one and one of the reasons I didn't was because I wanted a spinnaker and Triak came with one (the other reasons, if you are interested are wetness of ride (there are lots of AI videos showing the driver getting drenched); plastic hulls (I've gotten over that phobia or I wouldn't have bought a Getaway) and boards designed by Morelli and Melvin).

There were lots of things I didn't like about Triak, but I've fixed them over the three years I've sailed it. I'm certain I would have done the same with the AI or TI.

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R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:27 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
No apology needed! :)

All boats have their foibles; finding ways to make them better is half the fun.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 7:43 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Did a bit more tweaking in the backyard today, some of which was more to fit the spinnaker system in with other things already there.

Bow.
I already have an "O" fitting at the bow to take my (red-flecked blue) anchor line, and as you can see from the photo, this needs to be moved more to port (closer to the camera), so the anchor line won't interfere with the spinnaker traveller. (The 2 inch shackle at the left is there to attach to my trailer winch; I also added a second padeye for the bow handle (hidden))
Things I did to the Hobie kit here.
1. Doubled the knot in the line which is attached to thr spinnaker clew, as I noticed that I could pull the single knot into the block and jam it (trap for young players!)
2. I retied the knot on the clew traveller, shortening the line about 8 inches. This had the benefit of moving the rear block of the traveller towards the bow, therefore clearing my spray skirt, and so far, I can't see any negatives.
Image

Spinnaker blocks
I took a different approach from spook, and fitted really small ball bearing blocks. Only 30mm outside diameter, they are good for the 6mm diameter spinnaker sheet lines, and seem to offer zero friction, and are much more suitable than Hobie's "studs" I have permanently lashed then to the aka using Hobie's 1000# test dyeema rudder line. The blocks have a maximum working load of 250kg, which the spinnaker isn't going to generate anytime soon (without taking the mast with it)!PS Horrible photo - sorry
Image


Snuffer bag
Just a simple note... You don't need tramps to run the spinnaker kit! Here you can see that there is enough tension in the snuffer mounting straps to keep it well out of the water. BTW, the sail looks (censored) after being cramped in the snuffer... it needs to breathe!
Image

Rear backstay block mounting
Here I discovered that the mainsail block had been quietly rubbing the luggage deck bungee, hidden underneath it. (Of course an observant person would have noticed this earlier :oops: ) So I added a 2 inch long shackle to move the block out of the way, adding the new spinnaker block in the process. I mended the bungee by cutting it and rejoining the overlapped parts with three very tight zip ties. Job done.
Image

I revisited the issue of the halyard/backstay's long run down the hull, and confirm that I am happy with the simple saddles that Hobie provided. I can hardly measure the side force that the line puts on these padeyes, and there is even less potential stress on the self-tapper mounting screws. I am still very comfortable with my decision, especially as this standing rigging will not be moving much compared to running rigging like sail sheets.

No doubt there will be more to come, and I'm lovin' it! :D :D :D

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 9:25 am 
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Location: Benicia, CA
Just a suggestion, increase the distance from the stopper knot to the spinnaker tack. Your spinnaker will fly better with some distance between the bow and the tack (will have the additional benefit of letting you see under the sail). You will also get the most benefit by having the asymspin hoisted nearly to the top.

Also, just for you guys who are new to flying asymmetric spinnakers (btw, asymspin is a good contraction), tighten the luff (tighten the halyard) when you have the wind coming from above midships; loosen the luff when the wind is coming from aft of midships (basically you are helping the luff to "look at" the direction of the wind). Also, you will find that your vmg downwind is fastest when you are zig/zagging downwind, it is nearly never faster to go wing and wing. Finally, when overpowered, fall OFF (do NOT head up).

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R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Tpdavis473:
I've been running various spinnakers and jibs on my TI's for 6 yrs now and being an engineer by profession have all the tools for fea analysis and stress and strain calculations, and as a matter of recourse (because I'm a design engineer lol) anything I design and build goes thru batteries of load and stress calculations. The TI has a metal V-brace system designed into the hull (a really sound design) that is able to withstand most side to side stresses encountered when sailing with massive sailsets. However the forward to back stresses on the mast holder are not properly compensated. Basicall there is a small 1/4" stud in the base of the hull that recieves all the forward stress. Actually you can snap that stud easily with just the mainsail, just pull the main out fully and give it a swift jerk, the stud snaps easily. Thus the need for some sort of backstay when adding big sailsets. The back stay does two things, it protects the mast holder from too much forward stress from a huge spinnaker, and it also prevents the very flexible mast from bending too far forward when running hard downwind, with the sails bent forward there is considerable downward force applied to the bow (mostly because the main is mounted so far forward on the boat (not a problem with AI's btw). The result (without the stay) is the bow of the boat dives underwater and doesn't come back up until you release the pressure on the sails (I'm not about to ever do that (release the pressure on the sails) result is what I call nautilus mode where the boat goes along with the bow totally submerged (with a mountain of water in your face). Also when in that mode if you hit any boat wakes it's pitch pole time (I have pitch poled my TI 5 or 6 times). Basically the same story every time your screaming along 15-20 mph downwind with everything flying, you hit a boat wake, go over the first, hit the second dead center, then nose dive under the third, the bow dives about 4 ft and the boat goes from 20 to zero in one second flat, nearly every time this also takes out the nylon sheer bolts on the ama's as well. This also happens easily in gusty winds from variable directions, but usually that starts with the ama doing a dive.
Adding a 2ft bowsprit helps prevent this stuff quite a bit (the now angled sails create lift on the bow pulling it out of the water 6 inches or so).
You guys can all do as you like, I'm just sharing my own hard knocks experiences that's all.
FE


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:57 pm 
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Thanks. Makes more sense ... my mast is shorter and more ridgid and more ridgidly held by the mast base so no need for support.

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R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 3:55 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Another gotcha!
Was all set to give the spinnaker a good go today, but things went slightly differently!

I discovered, soon after leaving the beach next to the ramp, that my steering kept randomly jamming. I had just exited the narrow marina opening, to find myself heading straight for the rock breakwater! My mainsail furling exercise was Olympic qualifying speed (!), so I at least hit the rocks relatively slowly, and right on the nose, so I didn't break my aka brace pins. After a hairy ride back inside the marina, I then discovered that part of my issues from my last trip was a broken rudder pin....

Back on the beach I realised that the tide had now turned against me, and going out into the ocean was not favoured given a strong offshore wind, so I sat there and played with the spinnaker. I raised it half a dozen times, and noticed that the logjam at the mouth of the snuffer continues to ease, as the reinforced areas around the retrieval grommets gradually soften with use.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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 Post subject: Spinnaker redemption!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:41 am 
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It was just a matter of time, but today my spinnaker delivered in spades. I took my time at the ramp, making doubly sure that the new spinnaker rigging was not going to get caught up in my existing "extras" (anchor line and retrieve line both going to stainless steel "O" ring at the bow fitting, mini spray skirts with line going out to end of forward aka and then back to cleat on the gunwale, additional external rudder lines leading from extension arms on the rudder to cleats next to my skipper seat)

All went well, and the first deployment was copybook, although the three reinforced patches for the spinnaker retrieve line still tend to jamb at the snuffer mouth. I fully expect this issue to resolve itself as the sail is used more, but might also try something like McLube sail lubricant (anyone tried this stuff? I used to use it on the luff rope on s keelboat, so I assume it might be suitable for this application). For all that, the sail set beautifully and the boatspeed lifted quite noticeably. Snuffing the kite at the end of the downwind leg also went well, subject to the little logjam again.

Upwind or down, I had no hangups with the backstay and main, although of course it was necessary to partially furl the main to get it under the backstay when the spinnaker was tensioning the backstay (laws of physics...).

As the day progressed, I became more confident in flying the spinnaker in restricted space, and even flew it in a 75 metre channel which was only a few metres wide (showing off by now lol).

I still haven't quite come up with a solution for having a lap full of rope (spinnaker up and down line, port & starboard spinnaker sheets, but it just requires a bit of care if opening the hatch under the knees, to ensure nothing gets caught up - hardly anything to lose sleep over.

I know that some people might find the spinnaker to be too much bother compared to the simple Island una rig, and I get that, but I suspect that for me, given a few more outings like today, the spinnaker will become second nature. I already cannot envisage rigging my Island without it.

Here is my new white and shiny (for now!) haka, with two sails flying above.
Image

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:33 am 
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Location: South Florida
Looks great, Tony. Thanks for the report. The haka looks a bit too fancy for my likes though. :)

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:41 pm 
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I just discovered the fact Hobie has introduced a spinnaker sail and bought one for my Adventure Island. If it goes well I will take the pain for my Tandem Island. I am posting to thank those who have had experience with this. For a novice sailor, it gives one a great head start. It will be a about a month before I can get to SC and get my boat into the water but will give it my best to inform the forum how its going.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:06 am 
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fyi, Something I have noticed...
Note: you can see this in the Hobie instruction video, but, I noticed from the videos that some of Spinnakers are not using it.

Hobie shows a knot in the traveler assembly about 10 inches below the bowline knot that holds the sail to the bow. This knot keeps the sail higher off the bow for better viability and I presume for helping pull the bow up. I have tried the sail both ways - with and without the knot. Tying the knot to give about 10 inches of clearance between the sail attachment point and the bow of the boat sets the sail up nicely for better viability and pulling that bow up.


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