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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:05 am 
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Dear members,

I´ve long been a monohull dinghy sailor here in Brazil. For quite a while I ve been reading and reserching a lot on Hobie's Adventure and Tandem Island models and I' have become VERY inclined to buy one of these two models to sail down here.
My main interest is to have a boat capable ou coastal cruising, short expeditions and fishing offshore, sometimes going as far as 4 to 6 miles off the coast, not more than that.

I must admit I am VERY impressed by the mostly favorable reviews on these boats made by their owners in general. I am, however, very concerned about MANY, COUNTLESS reports on rudder failure while sailing, often during favorable sea and wind conditions and apparently out of nothing. In most cases the failures reported are due to the break of a plastic rudder pin, some other times due to the break or one of the steel bolts that secures the rudder base to the hull. But what impresses most about these rudder failures is that there is apparently no consensus on their likely cause. Each owner issues or gives ther own opinion on it but I have no notice on any Hobie's official answer on the subject. Other user say they have adopted steel pins instead of the factory plastic ones, apparently including the very experienced Josh Holmes, aka Yakass, from Australia. This is a very serious matter, though, and some unlucky person may even lose his life at sea because of it.

One other issue that I confess scares me a littlle, maybe just a little less though, are the reports and videos on capsizing due to the failure of the aka plastic pins while sailing. I say this scares me maybe less because apparently there is consensus that these accidents are caused to severe use in rough conditions of sea and wind. Since I am VERY conservative in what concerns safety at sea I do not care so much about this, because I would simply never go out to sail whith strong winds, but keep safe at shore instead.

These are the only reasons that still keep me from buying an Adventure Island or Tandem Island. If it was not for that I would already have one of them.

The monohull dinghies I have had may now and then capsize, but would easily be self rescued an put an put upright again and never have any rudder failure whatsoever.

That said I ask your advice about how serious are these rudder problems and what are finally the causes of the failure of plastic pins and bolts. I simply do not want to have a boat that could leave me adrift at sea whithout a rudder at any moment without any apparent cause or reason. I do not think I would have peace of mind while sailing with such prospect. More, how doeble is pin replacement at sea while adrift? An usufull information for those who kindly would like to respond, is that winds in my region in Brazil are almost always under 15 knots, most usually even under 10 knots. Although we do may have on rare few days winds up to 25 knots. But on such days no one would ever se me heading out to sea. Most probably I would stay at home even with 15 knots winds. More, if a ever buy a Tandem or Adventure Island it will be a 2016 model, a new boat not, an used one.

Thank you all very much for your time and advice.

André Teixeira


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:46 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
ATEX:
Let me set your mind at ease, if you are getting your information from this forum, the actual number of failures is magnified 100 fold, nobody is going to write about it if their rudder didn't fail.
I don't think anyone has broken more rudder pins and AKA sheer bolts than me, but my TI is massively modified and I push my TI way beyond it's design specifications, and take it offshore sometimes in conditions it was never designed for.

First off the rudder pins never break willy nilly for no apparent reason while your just out sailing minding your own business, it just doesn't happen, the pin is much stronger than that even in fairly adverse conditions.
I have broken literally dozens of rudder pin, and 99% of all my failures were all self imposed. Typically I'm not careful enough during launch or retrieval, or as I'm passing of a coral head or sand bar. The damage may not be immediate, and you likely don't even notice a problem besides the steering being just a little harder. This is an indicator than the rudder pin has broken either at the bottom or at the top, and is half broken. Now it's a ticking time bomb, the very next time you do a suicide jibe at high speed, or crank the rudder hard to do a tack, the rudder breaks the rest of the way. Yea you are miles from shore with nothing within miles of you at the time it breaks so you blame Hobie for a weak rudder design, but the real damage was done when you backed up at the dock with the rudder down possibly two outings ago, you just didn't know it at the time, we all feel the bump and pull the rudder up saying oops shouldn't have done that, but likely the damage is already done ( a ticking time bomb). Some of the guys like Tom Kirkman replace their rudder pins and AKA nylon sheer bolts on a regular basis, because all that stuff does wear over time.
On the AKA sheer bolts I did a test in my garage with a fish scale. On the first attempt if I remember correctly it took about 150 lbs of jerking force to sheer the aka sheer bolt. But if I put 100 lbs of jerking force on the same sheer bolt it survived 3 hits bit failed on the forth. I think it was around six or seven 75 lb hits/jerks to failure and so on.
Even after five or six 50 lbs hits if you take the sheer pin out it's bent and deformed.

Thats all well and fine, however the last thing you want to do is take that plastic pin out and replace it with a steel pin. If you do that, it only takes about 200 lbs force to fold and destroy the AKA bar, or sheer of the ball standing up on the hull (either takes about the same force) , or worse yet rip the hull around the area where the little ball sits. None of those are recoverable, and all those parts are very expensive.
I am a Design Engineer by profession (my day job) a I tested all that stuff myself just for my own information and knowledge to see if I'm putting my own life at risk.
Same applies with the rudder. If you replace the rudder pin with a steel pin, the next thing to go is the rudder gudgeon that holds the rudder to the hull, or you rip the bolts out of the hull, or worse yet rip the back of the boat off. None of that stuff is recoverable either, and very expensive to fix if it can be fixed.
Replacing the rudder pin out on the water is simple, just reach back slip the broken one out and slip the new one in, and your back to sailing in a couple minutes, it's not hard to do, I always carry spares.

If you do a search on this forum for AKA safety lines, you will find a wealth of fixes and knowledge. The simplest is just a piece of 3/16 nylon rope permanently attached to the boat, just a one time mod that takes 5 minutes to install yourself and costs about a buck. I've had my lines and clips on my boat for 6 yrs now (same lines and same clips), when not using them I just stuff the clips in the mesh pocket for storage, takes all of 30 seconds to just clip the clip on when setting the boat up, and thats it.
Here is a pic of my AKA safety line, most of us offshore guys have those installed on our boats, just a little extra insurance.
Image

You can do the same with your rudder, adding spectra safety lines to the rudder does exactly the same thing, even if the rudder pin breaks, you can still sail home.
Here is a pic of that mod (the thin grey lines in the picture wrapped around the rudder pin, there is one at the top and another little loop at the bottom wrapped around the rudder gudgeon. Just ignore all the other crap in the pic, that's just what my modded TI looks like. On yours you can just as easily tie the safety string to the cleats that hold the rudder bungy on at the back of the boat. That grey line is Hobie rudder line (what we call spectra), it around 500 lbs break, and zero stretch, and lasts literally forever.
Image

I wouldn't be afraid of the design, it is actually brilliant. Under normal use by 99% of the people out there this stuff never breaks, and is not a big deal, it's only crazys like me who hot dog out offshore blasting thru 3-4 ft rough seas at 15 plus mph where the stuff begins to break down.

Hope this sets your mind at ease, keep in mind on this forum people only post the bad stuff, not the 99% of happy users.
Hope this helps
FE


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:43 pm 
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Dear Fusioneng,

I really appreciate your time and advice. And all you say does make sense to me. Many thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:54 pm 
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Posts: 2893
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Totally excellent comprehensive answer there fusioneng! Looks like we will soon have another TI sailor in our midst!

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:56 am
Posts: 39
Location: Tampa, FL
I've owned 2 adventure kayaks, 1 adventure island and now own a tandem island. I've NEVER had a rudder pin break and I've done a few rough beach landings. I have replaced a rudder pin on my AI but that's only cause I had some slop in the rudder. The pin was worn but never failed me. I've also never had the plastic shear bolt break. Like FE said, it can take a lot of force before it breaks. Hope it never happens cause I'm not sure how difficult it will be to right the boat. I wanted to purposely flip to practice but my wife said NO. Maybe I'll just unlock the brace someday while sailing and not tell her!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:07 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Yakaholic:
I agree with you 100% the vast majority of owners are like you and never have a problem. Awareness of the potential problem and being regimented in your routine when launching and coming in kind of like a pilots checklist is really helpful. When coming into the beach I typically furl my main sail just outside the harbor, I'm fortunate because I also have a jib that is easier to control and close powerwise to my main so I always just fly that in tight places (easier to control). As I approach shore I either put the bungy's on my mirage drives and pedal with the bungy on, or I pull the mirage drives completely and lay them in the boat (that's number one thing to remember (lol)). As I approach shore I grab and un-cleat the rudder down line while still 50 ft out, as I approach shore I raise the rudder ( in my own experience that's the thing I forget the most often). In my case I have already killed the engines at this point, I then try to jump out and stop the boat 5-6 ft from shore, then in my case I tilt my motors up and pull the boat on shore. About half the time I forget to raise the centerboard (my bad). Fortunately the centerboard comes up on it's own in shallow water, actually in questionable shallows I rest my elbow on the centerboard lever which is deeper than everything else on the boat. If I feel that centerboard starting to come up, I know it's time to put the bungy on the mirage pedals and start shallow peddling, I also release the rudder down cleat and just hold the line with my hand till I'm back in deeper water. At low tide around here a lot of areas are only six inches deep and I have to sail over them. If you release the rudder and have it pointing straight back the boat is hard to steer, but if you raise the rudder about 20 degrees so your steering with just the lower edge of the rudder you can still steer in six inches of water, just make sure you are shallow peddling (with the bungy on the pedals). Just a good pointer based on my own experience. This same procedure also works in kayak mode if you find yourself going down wild rapids that you didn't know were going to be there (been there done that).
Thats another totally unique feature of the TI kayak (we have been canoe people most of our lives btw). We found with two good paddlers with double ended paddles in their hands we can run mild rapids with excellent control (rudder up and mirage drives out (or at least parked against the hull (during those oh crap 'RAPIDS' moments). Best tandem we have ever owned for that (way better than our old Oasis), just a side note...
I have no experience with the adventure (AI) so I don't know it's real capabilities, you'll need to get that info from someone else.

The beauty of my safety mods is they are so simple cheap and easy to do, It's worth installing them on any TI or AI just in case. In the event you ever do accidently break a nylon aka bolt, or pop a rudder pin, you still have complete control over the boat, and can stop furl the sail and make repairs ( replacing the aka bolt, or rudder pin), then be on your way again in two minutes. Chances are thru the life of the boat neither will ever come to play, personally I'm more comfortable knowing they are there. Both mods do not change the original design intent of Hobies designed in safety features, they only prevent capsize in the event of a sheer bolt breaking or an AMA falling off, and in the case of rudder pin failure, you can still steer the boat ( poorly) until you get to safety and can replace the pin. Yea once in a great while we don't get the AMA clips in tight enough (always a good idea to yank on them before launch). The safety rope also prevents the AMA's from coming all the way out while underway, if you see it come out, you just stop, furl the sail and click it back in place, then get underway again (no capsize). Same applies with the AMA bungys, if one breaks while underway the AMA falls off, if you have the safety rope in place, even if the bungy breaks the AMA won't come off.
I have a very strong opinion about safety, and strongly feel hobie should be offering an offshore safety kit ( for sale in their catalog), AMA safety lines an clips, rudder safety lines like I describe, and bungy tethers on the AMA's that prevent the AMA's from dropping down more than an inch or so (mostly so you can climb onto the boat over the AMA, and also totally preventing the AMA if the bungys ever do break (BTW the AMA bungy's are a consumable item, and need to be replaced once in a while, depending on sun exposure, age and use (just FYI).
Basically I've been describing all these simple no brainer safety fixes for over six years now every chance I get on this forum. Seriously people can't spend five minutes of their time to install these life saving mods, I'm getting critical now because whenever I discuss them I always get a half dozen responses stating you don't need anything. Nothing could be further from the truth, Yea I push my boat more than most, and all three of these critical safety features have saved my life on many occasions. I'm just tired of it that's all, just tryin to save somebody's life here, you never know what's going to happen out on the water, and am a strong believer in safety first. My strong opinion is Hobies self destructive safety features are great for saving the boat itself from further damage, but with total disregard for the health and life of the occupents, yes thats a strong statement, but very true especially with us older folks, lets be clear here, if your boat capsizes, or your rudder breaks in open water you are in a life threatening situation (been there myself a dozen times).
I can't make it any clearer than that.
FE
Sorry Yakaholic for unloading on this, but I feel pretty strongly about this (safety), if you guys still don't believe me watch this video, these guys could have easily drowned.....:, at my age that would not have been survivable if I was alone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJhoExyhWIU



And sorry ATEX, I'm not tryin to put you off buying one of these boats, I totally understand your well founded concerns, and know how to overcome them with simple no brainer fixes that take literally five minutes to install just one time to any adventure type boat, so stuff like in this video simply can't happen, just tired of being totally ignored for 6 yrs that's all.
PS Ed is a friend and has been out with our Island club in Sarasota Bay, him and I talked quite a bit about safety as he looked over my specially modded out TI, you will notice he has safety lines on his TI. I'm just happy they are all safe.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:49 am 
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Fusioneg, thank you, I really appreciate your answer and comments on safety.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:14 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Atex:
yea sorry about the long rant, kind of off topic.

Here is another video of really seasoned offshore guys maximizing what these boats are really capable of, if you look at all the boats in the video, everyone of them has the safety lines, all the proper safety equipment, and most importantly watch over each other and help whenever needed, these guys are real pro's, and really know what they are doing. The videos I'm showing pretty much depict real life situations that come up offshore, and how capable these boats really are, however the catch is you really need the experience and knowledge of the real (not imagined) capabilities of these boats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzlbnqUUsEM



Hope I didn't scare you off.
FE


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:43 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Now THAT is what Hobie Islands are made for! It is almost enough to make me learn Spanish, and go to the Canaries and join them. What an awesome adventure. Sure it is the "real deal" as far as safety is concerned, but my own setup is already at the appropriate level. I just have to get my health back on track and I am out there! Thanks for posting the videos. The capsize one is awesome in its one way too.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:23 am 
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Location: South Florida
I was not going to comment on this thread because there is lots of good advice and related experiences. However, looking over the comments it has occurred to me that, in terms of life-saving mods, devices, etc., the most important for 1-10 mile, off-shore sailing has not been mentioned: a PLB, personal locating beacon. This type of device is a no-brainer for ANY off-shore sailor. Here is a link to Amazon showing a variety of these devices. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dsporting&field-keywords=plb

Most are made by ACR and McMurdo. ACR ResQLink plus 406 Personal Locator Beacon is typical of these devices and highly recommended. Alternatively, a commercial locator system is the SPOT device, also listed on the Amazon page above. While SPOT is generally considered less reliable than the ACR & McMurdo devices, it is more versatile, and has saved many lives both on land and at sea. I carry one with me whenever I am on an outdoor adventure. SPOT does require a subscription. The PLBs do not require a subscription.

There is no reason for an AI/TI sailor to lose their life if they are carrying one of these devices. Participants in the WaterTribe Everglades Challenge are required to carry both a PLB and a SPOT device.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:57 am 
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Chekika wrote:
I was not going to comment on this thread because there is lots of good advice and related experiences. However, looking over the comments it has occurred to me that, in terms of life-saving mods, devices, etc., the most important for 1-10 mile, off-shore sailing has not been mentioned: a PLB, personal locating beacon. This type of device is a no-brainer for ANY off-shore sailor. Here is a link to Amazon showing a variety of these devices. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dsporting&field-keywords=plb

Most are made by ACR and McMurdo. ACR ResQLink plus 406 Personal Locator Beacon is typical of these devices and highly recommended. Alternatively, a commercial locator system is the SPOT device, also listed on the Amazon page above. While SPOT is generally considered less reliable than the ACR & McMurdo devices, it is more versatile, and has saved many lives both on land and at sea. I carry one with me whenever I am on an outdoor adventure. SPOT does require a subscription. The PLBs do not require a subscription.

There is no reason for an AI/TI sailor to lose their life if they are carrying one of these devices. Participants in the WaterTribe Everglades Challenge are required to carry both a PLB and a SPOT device.

Keith

Couldn't agree more about always carrying a PLB. I purchased one this year after I did the research and determined that one could easily save my life, and that my life was worth far more to me than the $270 it cost to buy one.

Here is a video showing how effective they are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxIiN559Jms

The boaters in this video pressed the PLB button right after they capsized. Very soon after they were rescued. You can see one boater holding an ACR unit in his hand throughout the video. Within minutes the Coast Guard was on the scene with a rescue diver and then alerted a nearby fishing boat to perform a pickup. Very impressive.


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