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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:57 am 
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CaptnChaos wrote:
Gosh, not even a mention that somebody already designed a very good working motor mount for the 1103AC on a Hobie TI. One that has been proven and works great. I put a lot of thought and work into that design too.

???? I complimented you on your design and very specifically mentioned it above:
pro10is wrote:
Excellent work!
I'm really looking forward to the final results. Please post on the performance of the 1103AC on a TI. As far as I know, you're one of the first, if not the first, to successfully mount this motor to the TI. The big mystery is how this motor performs with this boat. Performance should be comparable to the Suzuki 2.5HP outboard without all the noise, gas, and exhaust fumes. This would make the 1103AC one of the best motor options for the TI.

Please be patient. Your work will be heavily mentioned again as it was indeed excellent and portions of it may even end up as the starting point for the design I'm working on. What was missing in your posts was the detailed documentation. Most people would like much more than just a few photos (which are now no longer even visible):

Image

Your YouTube videos are nice, but you filmed them vertically and it's very hard to see any build detail.

As much build detail as possible is required if someone is to safely, successfully, and effectively replicate a mount. I intend to fully document the design I'm working on with detailed build instructions as well as a bill of materials so that almost anyone can replicate it. It will also be very carefully refined to be as easily built as possible with as few parts and tools as necessary.

Building upon each other's work is what it's all about in this shared forum. My TI gasoline outboard motor mount design was copied and modified by many others and you yourself used several aspects of it for your 1103 AC mount. We all work together here for the benefit of one another and everyone's contributions, including yours, are greatly appreciated.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:08 am 
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I edited my post within a minute of posting but you ended up with my original one.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:18 am 
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CaptnChaos wrote:
I'm guessing you might have some other ideas how to mount it other than the side mount I came up with. It will be interesting to see what you come up with. It's a heavy motor. I tried it many different ways before I compromised on the side mount. But it works excellent side mount and I love using this motor.

Jim

The 1103 AC is indeed considerably bigger and heavier than the stern-mounted 403. A stern mount is nice because it eliminates any minor power loss due to side-torque steering (as I noted above in this thread), but if it adds too much complexity or other serious disadvantages, then it's just not worth it.

I'll carefully consider other mounting options but I believe you were correct to come to the conclusion that it should be side mounted. I had thought that myself before I saw your design. At one point I was thinking simply to use my outboard mount design with the Torqeedo Travel 1103 C which mounts like an ordinary gasoline outboard. But that would require buying the rather expensive option of the remote throttle if someone wanted to control it from the front seat. The remote throttle and remote lifting/lowering capabilities are some of the things that make the Torqeedo Ultralight series motors so much more usable on the TI. That's why I purchased the Ultralight 1103 AC even though it requires a special mount for the TI.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:20 am 
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CaptnChaos wrote:
I edited my post within a minute of posting but you ended up with my original one.

Yes, I see that now, but I still don't want you to think for a second that your contributions are not greatly appreciated. I'd even like to consult with you on the next design if you don't mind, as I think your work is excellent.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:27 am 
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pro10is wrote:
Yes, I see that now, but I still don't want you to think for a second that your contributions are not greatly appreciated. I'd even like to consult with you on the next design if you don't mind, as I think your work is excellent.
Sounds good. Anything I can do to help, let me know. My brain is fuzzy today as we've been battling COVID this week. Not fun.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:31 am 
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CaptnChaos wrote:
pro10is wrote:
Yes, I see that now, but I still don't want you to think for a second that your contributions are not greatly appreciated. I'd even like to consult with you on the next design if you don't mind, as I think your work is excellent.
Sounds good. Anything I can do to help, let me know. My brain is fuzzy today as we've been battling COVID this week. Not fun.

Yikes! I hope you're doing ok. Please take care of yourself. I won't bother you with any consulting until you fully recover.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:25 am 
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Agree, electric motor options for the TI are looking more attractive with the 3 HP size motors, espeically if you value noise / environment over costs. As the small electric motor options mature and competative products begin to enter the market the motor capabilities (perforance and range) and value should improve.

Agree the side mounts seem to be the best bet for these larger electric motors.

The Torqeedo Ultralight 1103 AC Trolling Motor with standard 915 Wh battery will run you close to $3000 (tax + shipping).

The Torqeedo Travel 1103 AC is an option for a simple outboard mount approach for just a bit more $.

Extra Torqeedo batteries 915 Wh batteries will cost about $900 each.

Competition in the small electric motor outboard space continues to expand and is beginning to give Torqeedo some serious competion for the first time.

- The EPropulsion Spirit 1.0 Plus 3HP Electric Outboard Motor is a strong contender worthy of evaluation with a larger capacity 1,276Wh Lithium Polymer Battery that provides longer run times and added range and a lower overall cost ~ $2,500. This unit is comparable to the Torqeedo Travel 1103 AC motor. EPropulsion has a range of much larger batteries 2.0, 4.0 and a massive 9 KW batteries with a cost ranging from ~ $1300 to $4,400. The extra power and bigger standard battery of the EPropulsion outboard comes with a bit more weight.

- The Bixby J-2 Outboard is another option, but not in the same class as the two motors above. The Bixby is much lower power. I have seen TI owners mounting two Bixby motors on their TI.... may work.

As for me, I am sticking with my Suzuki 2.5 HP 4 stroke gas outboard (~ $800) for now. I mostly use the outboard in difficult conditions (traveling in challenging up wind or up current conditions) or in emergency conditions (storms). Put another way, I sail most of the time with no motor on. I can put up with a bit on noise for a short period of time to get out of difficult patches before returning to sail only.

I am keeping an eye on the electric motor options and fully expect I will be using electric motors in the future....just not now.

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Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:10 am 
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Great summary of the best electric motors available for the TI/AI. Each has its pros and cons and I carefully reviewed them all before deciding on the 1103 AC.

I ruled out the Bixpy because they don't (yet) offer a 3HP version and effectively mounting them on a TI is a challenge. You can power a TI with a 1HP motor, and I've done that for years with my Torqeedo 403, but they're a bit too slow and don't have quite enough power for very challenging situations such as bad weather conditions, large waves, and heavy currents. I've pointed this out many times. Mounting two would be difficult and costly and nowhere near as efficient and effective as one 3HP motor. Now that 3HP electric motors are an option, I see no compelling reason (other than cost) to buy a 1HP.

I like the ePropulsion motors. They are the closest competitor to Torqeedo. If I were starting from scratch, I might go with them, however, I already own two expensive Torqeedo batteries, so that made no practical sense for me. Additionally, they only offer a traditional outboard-style model such as the Torqeedo Travel series. These can be effectively mounted on the TI/AI using the same type of mount as with the Suzuki, but if you wanted remote control, which is highly desirable especially if you want to sit up front in a TI, you need to also purchase the costly remote control option. ePropulsion does sell pod-style motors but it would be quite challenging to effectively mount them on a TI. The other factor was build quality and reliability. ePropulsion hasn't been around that long. From what I can see, their build quality looks very good, but it's not yet proven, at least as far as I can tell. They're made in China, and as we all know, both great and awful products can come from China. My guess is that they're made well, but at this point, it's only a guess. At least with Torqeedo, I know from years of experience that their German design and build quality is excellent and they do stand firmly behind all of their products. I've received excellent and fast service from them the only two times I had minor issues with my 403, and repair parts and dealers are readily available. I do wish someone would purchase and long-term test an ePropulsion motor on a TI, as I've done with Torqeedo. That information would be very valuable to anyone deciding on the best electric motor option.

The 3HP Torqeedo 1103 AC is unique in that it's probably the best choice for a kayak-style boat like the TI/AI. While a traditional outboard-style electric motor can effectively be mounted on a TI, it's not the best option in my opinion. The 1103 AC can be remotely controlled from both the front or back seats and in addition to controlling both power and reverse, it can also be quickly and easily raised and lowered from either seat. This is considerably easier and more effective than with a outboard-style electric motor, and since the remote control is included with the 1103 AC, you don't need to pay $$$ extra for it. I also really like the low-profile compact design which is much more suited to a kayak in my opinion.

All electric motor options are still very expensive, and it doesn't look like that's going to change any time soon. At around $3000 for either Torqeedo or ePropulsion, this will never be the most cost-efficient option. Extra batteries are expensive as well. If cost is the major factor, then you're stuck with the Suzuki. But, if you have the funds available, electric motors offer many advantages over gas outboards, especially the very quiet operation, which for me, was huge. I can travel all day in glorious peace with my 403, and the 1103 AC is even quieter. I own a Suzuki 2.5HP gas outboard and I can't take much more than a half-hour's worth of listening to it drone on before it gives me an awful headache and ruins my day. Dealing with the gasoline was no fun either. My Suzuki is often hard to start, requires much more maintenance, is considerably harder to control, and has no real reverse. This is highly subjective though, a Suzuki might be fine for others and the cost is far less expensive. That said, I've seen boaters spend a lot more than $3K to power their boats. I'm always amazed when I see people of ordinary means show up at the dock with twin 250HP outboards strapped to the back of their powerboats. Many of us can afford $3K, but these people have spent more than ten times that just on their motors alone. Crazy. It's all a matter of it's worth it to you. For me, having an electric motor was well worth the cost because I love going out on my TI, some of the best days ever. Even with the electric motor, I've spent far less for my TI rig than most people spend on their boats. Even entry-level boats now go for well over $20K. So, it's all a matter of perspective and what you're willing to spend for your boating enjoyment.

I originally purchased my TI to sail, but let's face it, it's not the greatest sailboat. Over the years, I discovered that I need my motor far more than I originally thought. If the wind conditions are excellent, you can have a great time sailing, but in my experience, the winds need to be a minimum of around 5 knots and a maximum of around 18 knots. If lower, the TI is very cumbersome to sail if it sails at all, if higher it can be quite dangerous. How many days are the winds great or going in the direction you want to go? The TI can be sailed for many, many miles and be quite far from the dock or shore and the winds can then die down or become dangerous. Or you may wish or need to go in a direction where the winds make it difficult or impossible. A motor resolves all these issues. This is why most modern sailboats have motors. If you find yourself on the water on a windless day, you can still have a great time. If you find yourself in dangerous sailing conditions, a motor can get you safely back. If you need to go in a direction where the winds make it hard, you can still go in any direction you want. This is why a motor is so important on a TI (even with the pedal drive, which unless you're in great shape, can only be used just so effectively). If you're only a very short-distance sailor, you can maybe rely just on the winds and pedals. However, the TI is built well enough for long-distance or even some minor off-shore sailing, but it needs a motor to make this safe, effective, reliable, and more enjoyable. So, spending $3K on a motor may well be a good investment for many who really enjoy their TI and prefer it to other style boats. I also own a PWC boat that can go over 70 mph, but nothing beats a relaxing, peaceful day on the water with my TI. This is why the cost was acceptable to me. You simply can't pay enough for that kind of wonderful peace of mind few things in life can give you.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 11:12 am 
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A good summary as well.

I am looking forward to seeing lots of pictures and videos of the new setups for the electric motors from my fellow Island sailors.

Two subjects that I would like to see and hear more about include:

- Charging the batteries both for simple day trips... sail during the day and charge at night, and for longer camping sails over muliple days ~ 1 week. Assume solar but would to hear from my electric friends if this will work in the real world (i.e., get your battery charged up to ~ 80% each day (or I assume just pack in lots of extra batteries). (think of the EC 300 or Texas 200).

- Hobie Island with fresh design updates from Hobie. I am a bit nervous with the Adventure Island discontinued and new TIs hard to come by, that Hobie maybe considering moving away from the Island series all together.

My wishes, Hobie keeps the TI as is. Second Hobie comes out with a totally new refreshed Island design incorporating many of the improvements that Hobie has made to other kayaks but have not brought into the Island series (other than the mirage drive).

Ideas for improving the TI, including for mounting external drives, is summarized in this post. Fingers crossed. https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=63495

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Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:19 pm 
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As far as daily solar charging goes, this is feasible with sufficient expense and ideal weather conditions.

One Torqeedo Ultralight 1103AC battery has 915Wh capacity, 1830Wh for two. Let's use 1700Wh since we probably won't fully drain them.

The Torqeedo Solar Charger maxes out at 50W (ideal conditions) which means it would take a minimum of over 34 hours of direct unobstructed sunlight to fully recharge the two batteries. (I am ignoring other factors, like it takes longer to charge the last 20% of a battery than the first 20%.)

Additionally, one solar charger costs $750, is about 4 ft by 1 1/2 ft, and weighs over 5 lbs. You can add additional solar panels but would need 3, probably 4. Now you have to have space for all of them, preferably not obstructed by sail when in use.

There are more efficient solar panels available (more Watts per square foot) but not yet significantly so, and you still need panels that are light, flexible, and suitable for a marine environment.

Peter

_________________
2016 Hobie Oasis with Evolve v2 rudder mount, Sidekick ama kit, Mirage sail kit, Garmin echoMAP CHIRP 42dv, bilge pump
2007 Hobie Outfitter x 2 with Mirage sail kits, large rudder blades


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:30 am 
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powersjr2 wrote:
Agree, electric motor options for the TI are looking more attractive with the 3 HP size motors, espeically if you value noise / environment over costs. As the small electric motor options mature and competative products begin to enter the market the motor capabilities (perforance and range) and value should improve.

Agree the side mounts seem to be the best bet for these larger electric motors.

The Torqeedo Ultralight 1103 AC Trolling Motor with standard 915 Wh battery will run you close to $3000 (tax + shipping).

The Torqeedo Travel 1103 AC is an option for a simple outboard mount approach for just a bit more $.

Extra Torqeedo batteries 915 Wh batteries will cost about $900 each.

Competition in the small electric motor outboard space continues to expand and is beginning to give Torqeedo some serious competion for the first time.

- The EPropulsion Spirit 1.0 Plus 3HP Electric Outboard Motor is a strong contender worthy of evaluation with a larger capacity 1,276Wh Lithium Polymer Battery that provides longer run times and added range and a lower overall cost ~ $2,500. This unit is comparable to the Torqeedo Travel 1103 AC motor. EPropulsion has a range of much larger batteries 2.0, 4.0 and a massive 9 KW batteries with a cost ranging from ~ $1300 to $4,400. The extra power and bigger standard battery of the EPropulsion outboard comes with a bit more weight.

- The Bixby J-2 Outboard is another option, but not in the same class as the two motors above. The Bixby is much lower power. I have seen TI owners mounting two Bixby motors on their TI.... may work.

As for me, I am sticking with my Suzuki 2.5 HP 4 stroke gas outboard (~ $800) for now. I mostly use the outboard in difficult conditions (traveling in challenging up wind or up current conditions) or in emergency conditions (storms). Put another way, I sail most of the time with no motor on. I can put up with a bit on noise for a short period of time to get out of difficult patches before returning to sail only.

I am keeping an eye on the electric motor options and fully expect I will be using electric motors in the future....just not now.

There is another electric motor option that I'm a bit hesitant to mention because I'm not yet sure about its quality or the company's reputation, but for anyone looking for a less expensive option, it may be worth a try.

The Newport Vessels Kayak Motor NK180 appears to be a Chinese copy of the Torqeedo 403 A/AC with a few key differences. It's so close in design to the 403 A/AC that I'm surprised Torqeedo doesn't sue them. However, it's well known that some Chinese companies blatantly copy other companies' designs without regard to international patent laws and face no repercussions. I can't be certain but that may be the case here. Just compare the two and judge for yourself.

Newport Vessels NK180
Image

Torqeedo 403 AC
Image

Newport Vessels NK180
Image

Torqeedo 403 AC
Image


Regardless, you can buy one in the US for only $999. While that may seem like a great price, it doesn't include the battery. You need to supply your own.

Here's what they recommend for battery options:

Image

Using one 24 Volt LiFePO4 battery or two 12 Volt LiFePO4 batteries will cost at least another $500-$1200. So you need to consider that. But it is nice that you can choose your own battery. If on a budget you could even choose a lead-acid battery for considerably less, although they're twice as heavy and have half the usable power.

They claim it's 1.8HP, but after reading several reviews of the motor (which are mostly positive) the reported speeds would indicate to me that this is roughly equivalent to the 1HP Torqeedo 403 AC in terms of power and performance. The NK180 also does not appear to have the 403 A/AC's GPS features which tell you your remaining range in km or miles and along with the Torqeedo smartphone app, can track your voyages.

The 403 sells for $2499 with a 915 Wh battery or $1999 with a 320 Wh battery. The NK180 sells for $999, but after adding a decent 24V LiFePO4 battery, you're looking at around $1750. If you went with lead-acid batteries, it would be less. I'm not sure the risk of buying a Chinese knockoff is worth a few hundred dollars difference, but to be fair, the reviews were mostly good and the two-year warranty seems to be sound as the company purportedly stands behind it. There is a lot of info about it including YouTube reviews. I personally wouldn't buy it as there is currently no 3HP version and I'm not sure of the company or the quality, but if you happen to own one or more compatible LiFePO4 batteries for an RV, solar application, or whatever, then it might make a good value choice at $999. If you need to buy a battery for it, then compare the final cost, quality, and performance, to the Torqeedo 403 AC or 403 A before you decide.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:28 am 
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Interesting. Some key differences comparing the NK180 and the 403:

The NK180 does not have an integrated GPS and does not provide any range or speed data like the 403 (gps in batteries), though it does display power consumption.

The NK180 is more powerful at 600W input vs 400W for the 403. If the efficiency is close between the two this would would result in 1.5hp vs 1.0hp (but more discussion below).

The NK180 weighs quite a bit more with motor-only weight of 14.3 lbs vs 11.0 lbs for the 403.

The NK180 has a very small prop diameter of 5.9" with 1800 max RPM versus the 403's 7.9" prop at max 1200 RPM. I suspect maybe the NK180 is direct drive vs the gear reduction drive in the 403. If so, it is probably more efficient and could account for the claimed 1.8hp. On the other hand, at the slow speeds we are talking about a large slower prop will be more efficient than a small faster prop, likely negating the direct drive benefit.

Both the NK180 and 403 props are a weedless design. I have both the evolve prop (not-weedless) and the 403 prop (weedless) and honestly observe no improved weed cutting ability with the weedless design.

Shaft lengths are very close at 19.7 for the NK180 and 18.9 for the 403. With the slightly longer shaft and smaller prop, the NK180 may be less prone to surface cavitation.

Peter

_________________
2016 Hobie Oasis with Evolve v2 rudder mount, Sidekick ama kit, Mirage sail kit, Garmin echoMAP CHIRP 42dv, bilge pump
2007 Hobie Outfitter x 2 with Mirage sail kits, large rudder blades


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:09 pm 
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Looks like I mispoke..... It looks like this year 2022 (not the next few years) is a real turning point for small electric outboards.

In addition to the Torqeedo, ePropulsion, Bixpy and NK 180, it turns out there are quite a few new commercially available electric outbords, even a few 3 to 4 hp electric outboards that cost less than $500 (for the motor only). See a brief summary here: https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/electric-outboard-motor-we-test-12-options-81853

To my earlier question a few post back, how can you recharge your electric motor battery while on longer trips lasting days between plug in recharging..... basically two main options: set up solar recharge rig or bring lots of extra batteries.... but .... now add a thrid option

- regeneration - where while sailing your TI at > 4 knots, you can recharge your battery by just having the prop down in the water while sailing. For Island sailors like me who sail 90% of the time, generally at speeds > 5 knots, this regeneration option may be worthy to explore.

See details on the ePropulsion Spirit 1.o Evo here: https://www.epropulsion.com/spirit-evo/

Worthy of consideration!

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Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:35 am 
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powersjr2 wrote:
Looks like I mispoke..... It looks like this year 2022 (not the next few years) is a real turning point for small electric outboards.

In addition to the Torqeedo, ePropulsion, Bixpy and NK 180, it turns out there are quite a few new commercially available electric outbords, even a few 3 to 4 hp electric outboards that cost less than $500 (for the motor only). See a brief summary here: https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/electric-outboard-motor-we-test-12-options-81853

To my earlier question a few post back, how can you recharge your electric motor battery while on longer trips lasting days between plug in recharging..... basically two main options: set up solar recharge rig or bring lots of extra batteries.... but .... now add a thrid option

- regeneration - where while sailing your TI at > 4 knots, you can recharge your battery by just having the prop down in the water while sailing. For Island sailors like me who sail 90% of the time, generally at speeds > 5 knots, this regeneration option may be worthy to explore.

See details on the ePropulsion Spirit 1.o Evo here: https://www.epropulsion.com/spirit-evo/

Worthy of consideration!

You weren't wrong, there are really only a few good choices for electric outboards currently in existence. The yachtingmonthly.com article you referenced carefully and correctly distinguished electric outboard motors from electric trolling motors.

Electric trolling motors have been around since 1934. While they have been getting better and more powerful with the advent of lithium batteries, they are specifically designed much more for trolling than for general propulsion. You can try to use a trolling motor for long-distance propulsion, but historically the results have not been as good as an electric outboard specifically designed for that, there are simply too many design tradeoffs. They still can work of course, but if propulsion is your primary goal, you're likely better off with an electric outboard.

Electric outboard motors were largely introduced in 2005 by Torqeedo who designed the first commercially available ones. These motors were specifically designed for propulsion and do not employ the design features required for a good trolling motor. Thus, they're able to focus instead on propulsion, continuous operation, long-term longevity, speed, and power efficiency. When you're dealing with such limited power, you want it all to go to the motor's primary objective and not split between any other usage. If propulsion is your only goal, then an electric outboard would probably be best.

I didn't consider any trolling motor for use as a TI propulsion motor. The only reason I can see for doing that is cost. Trolling motors probably outsell electric outboard motors 10,000 to 1. Thus, due to economy of large-scale production, they can often be manufactured and sold for a lot less. I see a lot of boaters trying to employ trolling motors for propulsion with mixed results. Still, if you want an electric motor for propulsion and cost is a major factor, this remains an option. While your typical trolling motor may not be as efficient, long-lasting, or as on-point as a dedicated electric outboard, they are potentially viable alternatives if you can find one that works well enough and costs a lot less.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:52 pm 
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The electric motor options continue to expand.

Check out this video - testing a number of small electric motors in the 3-6 hp range (i.e., not trolling motors!).

Motoskiff anyone ;-) https://motoskiff.com/

https://youtu.be/U_ayeunqGmA

_________________
Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold


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