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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:20 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Chris:
Now thats a good idea, make a mount out of one of your drive plugs, run the round shaft up thru the center of the drive plug (cut the drive plug in half, then re-attach the halfs around the shaft), then you have yourself a isopod drive just like cruise ships. Forward and reverse is old news, now you can go sideways as well, and I'll bet mounted in the drive well you could turn on a dime (within your own length) just like the big cruise ships do.
It is likely more efficient under the boat because it can't possibly cavitate because of the hull.
Pretty cool
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:49 pm 
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I used this drive well motor for a couple years. I have an AI and missed not being able to use the mirage drive and motor at the same time. For me, that's part of the appeal of the Torqeedo mouted at the stern.

http://www.islandhopperoutboards.com

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2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:13 pm 
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My first outboard was an Island hopper, I ordered it the first day I owned my first TI after getting stuck offshore and couldn't get in. I went and picked it up the next day at their factory in st pete the next day, they probably thought I was a nut. The following day I had it mounted on my boat, and never went out without an outboard again (true story).
FE


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:38 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
I agree great review, I've been closely following Torqeedo for several yrs now with great interest, they are light years ahead of the rest of the manufacturers who all seem to be in the same exact rut, all trying to fit their entire product line onto that one elusive 3000 lb. bass boat, thinking the users only want to troll at 2-3mph, at around a 15% duty cycle, and can add as many heavy batteries as they please, and assuming all boats have an alternator for recharging.
All us poor saps with kayaks are stuck with having to adapt that crap to our needs. Case in point, try to find a trolling motor prop not designed to propel a 3000 lb boat at 3mph,,,,, there aren't any, but there are plenty weed free props ( lol).
You only need to glance at other markets such as scooters, electric bikes, wheel chairs, golf carts, robots, toys and see they all have PWM drives and lithium batteries at 1/10the cost. Actually many motors these days have the PWM electronics built in, and very high power controllers can be purchased for $30-50 dollars.
I feel strongly that It's the general trolling motor industry itself that is so far behind the curve and out of touch with reality it's not even funny, trying to push 30 yr old technology on all of us.
Case in point look at a minnkota 30# endura, from 20 yrs ago and a current model, they should be ashamed (IMO).
Case in point does it really cost $200 dollars more to paint the motor white vs black, and dip the motherboard in plastic coating, and add a small piece if zinc.
Why is Torqeedos solar panel so expensive ($900 for a 45w amorphous panel), I wonder if you couldn't just buy a pair of marine 12v mono crystal flexible 40's hook them up in series for half the price, if that's not practical, just add a small 12v lith battery with an inverter to power the 110 charger that comes with the torqeedo system to charge the Torqeedo batteries, this way the 12 volt system could power all the aux things like fish finders (most everyone has them), and lights, radios, etc. actually I have a 400 or 600 amp lithium battery jumper (for jump starting cars), that is the size of a book and only a couple lbs, I bought at I think Lowes for next to nothing, it includes Usb and 12 vdc power adapters. That whole package could go in a dry box on the rear deck with some damp rid crystals sprinkled on a false screen floor, with a couple pin holes drolled in the bottom to drain the water out of the box (those damp rid crystals are a must (amazing stuff). If you need to charge your IPad or Iphone it's safest to plug it in and keep it inside the dry box while charging (I know of no waterproof USB stuff.
It's just not Torqeedos fault that the main body of the industry are a bunch of morons IMO (excuse my french (lol)), and have no competition. Granted recently some nice stuff is coming out from other manufacturers, but they think adding a $20 dollar gps , or a $30 dollar PWM controller to their same old crap increases the cost by a thousand bucks (give me a break).
Yea Torqeedo likely puts 70% profit in their pockets, I don't blame them one bit they offer are very good, really well designed products ( I'm a designer and appreciate that kind of stuff very much), but look what they are up against (no competition).
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to design injection molds and seals, that protect the precious electronics from water intrusion, using $10 bucks worth of plastic (just sayin) Torqeedo does it why can't anyone else. Heck I can even supply them with the indestructable heat conducting plastic that they would need for around a buck a lb.

I was born, but not yesterday.
Signed
Frustrated FE, I want all that stuff but I hate having to invent everything myself, (for my own personal use only)


I understand your frustration. I was shocked at how ancient the trolling motor technology was, even from the supposedly best manufacturers. There's no excuse to base their products solely on lead acid batteries except if, as you say, their market is primarily aimed at people who own 3000 pound bass boats.

Despite the popularity of kayaks these days there are only a few manufacturers that sell kayak motors, and only Torqeedo uses technology specifically designed for a kayak. The others use technology from trolling motors. So Torqeedo can charge what they want because they have no real competition in this niche market. All the Torqeedo components are quality made, but the cost still seems high to me. Fortunately, after you get over the price you're rewarded with an excellent motor. Hobie is the same. Their prices are very high, but at least you get the best quality and designs available for your money.

To answer your question on solar panels, the early Torqeedo batteries were very fussy about the voltage and current ratings of powered or solar chargers. Their newer line of batteries, available now, are far better and will accept almost any DC power source from 9.5 to 50 VDC. They've changed the internal circuitry to accept a very wide range of voltages, and current limiting is now handled internally as well. However, solar panels vary widely in power capabilities so this has to be taken into account. Torqeedo specs a minimum required charging current of 4 amps. Anything less than that may not fully charge the battery or charge it too slowly.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:59 am 
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Buckaroo wrote:
Will the motor fit through the mirage drive slot if I wanted to make a custom mount for it ?

thanks
Chris

Yes, I believe it uses the same motor as the Hobie Evolve. The only catch is that you need to align the propeller so that the blades are vertical when it passes in or out of the Mirage Drive slot. The Evolve uses a rather crude design of pushing a long "Prop Alignment Tool" into the assembly to first align the prop to get it out. Imagine coming up to a shallow rocky area quickly and unexpectedly and then having to find the alignment tool from wherever you stored it, shove it into the motor, release the two click-n-go levers, and then frantically yank the whole assembly out of the slot before you hit anything. This is one of the reasons why I passed on the Evolve.

You're better off mounting the 403 in the back and using the tilt mechanism with a single pull of a line.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:47 am 
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Yea It's kinda too bad Hobie got stuck on the Evolve design, kind of wanting it to only run in their own kayaks (with mirage slots), kind of insuring their evolve system can only work on Hobie stuff (protected market). They likely developed in on their own with good intentions ( the system does work very well), but in the meantime Torqeedo was developing the same motor tech that would work on all kayaks (the 401), because they wouldn't want to be stuck to one brand. By the time all this came out, Hobie likely had way too much invested with their evolve system to change course. Besides the Evolve is exclusive to Hobie, and under the right circumstances it genually is really good. No mods are neccessary to the boat itself, and if you own multiple Hobie kayaks like we used to have (we have had 8 different Hobies), it can easily be installed on any of them with no mods to the boat. They also had the ability to install on the twist and stow rudders for those who wanted to keep their pedal drive in tact. Then the Tandem Islands came along, and with their rudder problems, the twist and stow rudder mount option came off the table, then the PA line (same situation), both of which ended up being top sellers for Hobie (who knew (lol)). Now that evolve solution becomes a little awkward with limited application (at least on those two model lines). Obviously everything still works, and probably quite well (I don't know because I don't own one), but I do have eyes, and I'm sure there are many stalward Evolve users out there that feel it's the greatest thing since sliced bread (which it is).
However I don't think Hobie anticipated that Torqeedo wouldn't sit on their hands with their technology catered to an exclusive hobie only market. Now fast forward to today, the Torqeedo 403 system (exact same motor and battery system Hobie uses), is now available for any kayak (not just Hobie exclusive), the design is rock solid, and especially on the TI and PA lines of boats, might be a superior solution. Kind of a quandrie that Hobie brought on themselves ( by insisting the evolve design only works on Hobies boats. It's a free market and users can make their own decisions on which product to buy. I'm sure it's a little painful for Hobie the way thing developed over time, but I'm sure they are still selling enough evolves to make it worth their while to keep producing them especially with so many true blue Hobie fans. Think about it, we already have their boats and most of us would not give them up for all the tea in china (super loyal fan base), my opinion is whatever we add to the boats after purchase to make them more versatile for us individually, Hobie should be neutral ( which they are), obviously within reason safety wise.
I feel the state of affairs with Hobie is very strong, I'm sure they prefer you buy their evolve line, but they likely won't void your warranty if you happen to install a Torqeedo 403 instead, (twin 403's probably (lol)).
That's the way I'm reading things anyway.
Of course all my opinions are my own, I'm still planning to install twin 403's on my TI, but my purposes are very specific with my human tri-power stuff.
FE


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:21 am 
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Looking forward to your experiences of long range use, Bob. If I can get as much range with a Battery operated motor as my Honda 2.3 while maintaining 5 mph. I'm in, not having the noise of a gas powered motor would be a positive. Unfortunately the cost looks to be more than twice or more than a gas motor, especially with added batteries for range. It cost me all of $950 for the Honda 2.3 and a one gallon gas tank. The mount was cheap to build. Sounds like you would easily have over 2k in setting up an equivalent ranged battery powered motor, more like 3K. Not sold on it yet, but like the sound of it getting closer.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:24 am 
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Yea I'm keely aware of the costs of being on the bleading edge of tech.
However I've been working on this human powered tri-bred stuff for 5 yrs now, my only interest is to solve and finish something I dreamed up a long time ago, just for my own personal satisfaction and use, just to say I did it (a personal pride thing).
I'm pretty sure there is zero interest out there in owning a human/battery/solar powered pedal/sail boat with unlimited range (as long as the sun is shining), that cruises 8-10 mph independent of actual wind direction and speed.
I'm sure there are already a gazzilian succesful solar powered boats with unlimited range currently. I heard of a guy with a solar powered getaway that has made the catalina run. There was another guy with a windrider 17, a Torqeedo 1003, and a huge solar array entered in the 300 mile everglades challenge a couple years ago, I have no idea how he fared.
I suspect most of those solar boats are cruising 2-3mph and only operate in no to very light wind and seas. Plus I'm no glutten for extreme physical athletic demands. I know my physical limitations to be peddling at a moderate 40-50 cps, which I can maintain for ten hrs with a few rest breaks mixed it, so thats the premise I'm working with.
My boat has to be able to adapt and tolerate all conditions.
It really makes no difference to the price if rice if I succeed or not, It's just a hobbie thing, but I'm having the time of my life tryin.
FE


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:43 am 
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I'm really interested in the notion of the ultralight as both a motor and a backup rudder. Has anyone experimented with lifting the rudder out of the water and using the motor to steer with? How's the performance, particularly in rough conditions (high winds, chop, etc.). We've had some hairy experiences with losing a rudder in some sudden bad weather, and it would be fantastic if the Ultralight really provided a reliable back up.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:18 pm 
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DCGryphon wrote:
I'm really interested in the notion of the ultralight as both a motor and a backup rudder. Has anyone experimented with lifting the rudder out of the water and using the motor to steer with? How's the performance, particularly in rough conditions (high winds, chop, etc.). We've had some hairy experiences with losing a rudder in some sudden bad weather, and it would be fantastic if the Ultralight really provided a reliable back up.

Today I experimented with using the 403 motor alone without the rudder to steer the TI and I'm happy to report it worked fine. It was not quite as refined as using the rudder but it worked well and would get a TI back safely in the event of a rudder failure. I was able to steer the boat almost as normal using the rudder control handle. The turns weren't quite as sharp and it was necessary to rev the motor a little if you needed to turn quickly. Other than that you wouldn't know you weren't using the actual rudder.

If the rudder line broke you could still use the motor to steer by attaching two lines to the motor's steering arm and simply pulling on either line to rotate the motor in the direction you wished to go.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:34 pm 
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Update:
The 403 motor has be redesigned to address the issue with fishing line cutting the prop shaft's o-ring. The redesign was implemented in late 2015.

The redesign consists of a brass cap and a stepped area around the seal to protect it from something trying to wrap around the prop shaft. Here is what it looks like:

Image

It's good to know this issue was addressed by Torqeedo engineering to make a great design even better.


Last edited by pro10is on Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:55 am 
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Great write up and excellent comments.

Just as a point of interest or review, Googling availability and cost, the ultralight 403 runs from about $1,799 to $1,899.
It runs for an hour or two or there abouts on a charge and will go in that time 10 maybe 20 miles.

Add batteries / solar and add run time, range and cost, but no smell and almost silent and light-weight.

Batteries run about $600 each.

A Honda costs about $800-$900 or maybe $1,000 and runs as long as you feed the fuel tank, but on a tank it will go around 50 miles.

A gallon lasts all day and extra gas costs around $2.20/gallon.

It's great that there are choices.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:22 am 
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What do you guys think of this one? Introductory prize of 750 is tempting,
Bixpy.com


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:54 am 
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nap wrote:
What do you guys think of this one? Introductory prize of 750 is tempting,
Bixpy.com

Good to see another player in the market, but it isn't quite clear.. is this a crowd funding future product, or is it actually on the market? All the "pre-order" buttons suggest it is not yet actually available.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:56 am 
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Hey sounds just like the AI2, bunches put money down then waited 6 months or more (lol). That one turned out way ok.


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