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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:17 am 
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Can anybody report the true range at 3 mph of the 915 wh battery on a tandem treasure island?

Since the evolve is only coming with the 300 wh battery and my french dealer built a well adapter for the 403, i might go for the 403 option with 915 wh battery.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:37 am 
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If you look at the charts pro10is put together on the previous page, it lists all the data you are looking for. All his tests were done on a TI. According to his chart with the big battery, (915wh) according to the chart you will get around 25 miles range at 3mph, ( which is beyond incredible).
All his charts are assuming no wind, current, or big waves and assuming the torqeedo 403 to be the only propulsion source.
According to his charts the current draw is around 100 watts, (which is also incredible).

Keep in mind though that a TI has three power sources, (actually 4 if you include paddling), which is what most of us call tri-power propulsion, ( The only boat in the world capable of this, invented by hobie).
A TI can be pedaled solo at a walking pace (40-45 cps) at 3mph. Of course you need to build up your legs a little, I can pedal around ten hrs at that pace with a few rest breaks during the day.
Even in light winds (5-7 mph), you should be able to sail the boat at least those speeds.
Now add to the equation the huge trampoline areas on the TI, (in 8 yrs we never took our TI’s out without our tramps installed, (not even once). Solar panels have gone way down in price recently. On my next TI I’m planning to add four 21” x 60” flexible 24v panels, ( each panel is around 150 watts), the panels are around $150-$180 ea. My TI will have twin torqeedos, (each on a separate system, (because I’m mostly offshore and I require the safety reduncy).

The speeds your talking about, just one of those panels should power your boat on a sunny day.
The true advantage on the Torqeedo system is the gps in the system and it’s ability to measure the actual load on the motor at that moment, then predict the range at that load. Now imagine in your mind starting out with the sail down and not pedaling, the screen will give you the range at that load and the boat is traveling at say 3mph. We’ll call this the constant load. Take note of all the settings, (in other words keep the throttle locked at that setting). Now start pedaling at a comfortable walking pace, (something you can maintain for hrs). Your speed will increase to maybe 4mph, and the range display will also increase to a larger number, (because the load on the system has decreased). Now if you have a little favorable wind, open the sail up and start sailing. Because of your forward motion the sail is now able to provide additional power (via apparent wind), this additional power will increase your speed a little more, and the gps and computer takes all this into account and predicts your range at that power consumption level and speed. The results are provided real time on the display and should be very accurate.
All this is very easy to prove out, we all know water is exactly 1000 times more dense than air. A simple test is to take the prop out of the water and run it in the air, take note at a certain amp draw, (say 100 amps) the rpm that the prop is spinning. Now put the motor in the water and propel the boat to the same amp draw, if you take note of the rpm of the prop it will be much slower in the dense water.
Now if you think it thru, the logic of tri-power is by providing additional propulsion from all three powersources at the same time, you are creating the exact same circumstance as running the motor in air vs water.
Batteries are a finite power source. At a certain load, (say 100 watts), the battery will last so long at that load, (measured in watt hrs).
In other words by utilizing all the power sources at the same time you are decreasing the power overhead, (similar to running the motor in the air vs in the water).
Bottom line is the at 100 watts power consumption, when using tri-power, instead of going 8 hrs at 3 mph for 25 miles, the boat will now travel 6 mph for 8 hrs, and travel 50 miles in theory. Of course there are power loss’s here and there, but getting 5mph for 40 miles would still be incredible.
Now throw in a solar panel, and you can be out all day and not draw anything off the batteries.
Exciting times.
FE


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:38 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Exciting times.
FE


Indeed fusion! I thought the charts were only theorical, good to find out they are the result of real tests.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:30 am 
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courcheval wrote:
Indeed fusion! I thought the charts were only theorical, good to find out they are the result of real tests.

If you read the entire thread (I know, it's a bit long) you will see that I specifically did not want to list only theoretical information because with all the variables such as temperature, winds, waves, and currents, theoretical information alone will not give an accurate representation of real world conditions. The charts were taken from data on a day where conditions were near perfect to establish a baseline, but if you read the entire thread I also give many examples of range in more typical conditions. On times where the wind and currents are with you, you can get better range than the charts list, but when they're against you, you will of course get less range.

It would have been much easier to list only theoretical information (which several people have on the 403) but my results are based upon empirical observations from two seasons use of the Torqeedo 403 on a typical TI in all kinds of conditions and with two different capacity batteries. This I believe is currently the most accurate and complete report of the 403 for use with the TI you will find anywhere.

With the new 403 C model which uses the 915 wh battery, you can expect a reliable range of around 25-28 miles at 3 mph when used motor only on a typically loaded TI on a typical day with varying wind and currents. If you also use the TI's Mirage drive and/or sail to good effect you can do significantly better, up to double that range.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:46 am 
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@pro10is

Thank you so much for putting this thread together and detailed mounting directions. The local shop, Dolphin Paddlesports, was able to follow them and install a 403 into a new'ish (2018 demo unit) Tandem island. I also got the 50 Watt Torqeedo brand fold-able solar panel. I have the smaller battery as Defender was out of stock of the larger ones at the time of my order.

The house we are moving into is on a creek. I can take that all the way to the gulf (a little under 4 miles). The main use of the 403 will be to help me get out to the gulf quicker, then the panel can charge up the battery while sailing to make the journey back home easier.

The secondary use of the 403 is just for a general range extension. This will allow my wife and I to take overnight trips with the TI. Travel 30-50 miles north or south down the coast, stay at an AirBNB with coast or dock access and then back the next day. Or extend the trip over multiple days to explore new waters.

I'm hoping to share more details on speed, energy use, solar charging, etc. as we put it all to use.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:25 am 
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@maltrease,

That's great to hear, I hope it all works out for you.

I've never tried using a solar panel with the motor, instead I rely on two batteries to power me reliably for an entire day. It'll be interesting to see how the solar panel works out. I hope you'll post the results.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Tried the 403 with Tom Kirkman's method (using the rod holder) this weekend. First impressions:
* The motor is SUPER powerful, so much so that it kicked itself out of the water over and over (The "curvature-limit" didn't work as expected, it kicked up any way)
* The conduit hangers, despite being super tightly secured, got loose (they rotated on their base). I have some ideas how to remediate (run the shaft inside a PVC pipe segment, filled in with foam, and use 30mm shaft collars as retainers (Will post update)
* The battery that comes with the 403C model (the only difference with the 403) lasts pretty much for ever. Didn't do any scientific measuring, but after 1.5 hours of running at about 40-50% max power I had consumed ... less that 5% of the battery charge (???). That is OUTSTANDING
* Don't hold any doubt about the capability of this motor to poser the TI: worry more about keeping it safely attached :P

So, I am considering a motor attachment based on aluminum cylinders (1" thick) inserted on the front scupper holes, with a transversal axis that holds the motor on the side (Imagine the Hobie cart, carried on your boat, but instead of the wheels extend the axis to one side and hang the motor from the side on it. Easy to put on/remove, reversible to work on either side, with the motor pointing down just next to the aka. Has anybody experimented with that? Of course, any of the two sets of scuppers can be used (front or aft), which gives added flexibility to the seating arrangement (BTW, I hated seating on the back :)

Also, just received from Torqeedo the wing shape to prevent cavitation. Surprised to see that it is made of aluminum, had imagined it plastic or rubbery. Will also test how to attach it this weekend (some cement will be required, as well as cutting it - it's really long) - The factory pieces that work as retainers are back-ordered.

http://iweave.net/Tandem/IMG_3425.jpg

Will send pictures when the design advances a little. pro10is, again, thanks for all your support and patience answering questions. I am stoked with the new toy (rode about 3 miles dead against a 10mph wind on Monday, and did it quickly, safely and laughing at how long it would have taken me otherwise, DESPITE the fact that I was putting the motor down over and over after accelerating it a little too much). Awesome stuff, thanks for getting me into it


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:57 am 
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zorzal wrote:
...Also, just received from Torqeedo the wing shape to prevent cavitation. Surprised to see that it is made of aluminum, had imagined it plastic or rubbery. Will also test how to attach it this weekend (some cement will be required, as well as cutting it - it's really long) - The factory pieces that work as retainers are back-ordered.
Image


Where did you get this part? From Torqeedo? Could you please provide more information?

Thank you.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:43 am 
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pro10is:
got it from Torqeedo on the web. Here is a link: https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/produ ... 00056.html

Unfortunately, the adapters mentioned in https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/spare-parts/outboards/travel/travel-503-s/shaft/profile are backordered
Cheers


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:06 am 
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Oh I see, you're trying to adapt a part from the 503 series to work on the 403. Clever, if it works.

Please let us know how that goes.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:56 pm 
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We got the boat today and took it out for the first time. It has the 403 installed similar to this guide and also a 50 Watt Torqeedo brand solar panel.

Not much time with it yet, but a few things to note.

We started around 1pm with clear sun, 100% charged battery and the solar panel plugged in.

I believe the computer display shows the net power draw after factoring in the power supplied by the solar panel. With a minimal forward throttle we'd get the propeller spinning, showing 0 watt usage and the display showing the battery was actively being charged. Pushing the throttle forward a little more and charging stopped but it still showed 0 watts being drained. Pushing it slightly more and it began showing the watts being used and the range indicator before the battery would be drained.

It is fun to think of having an unlimited range as long as you move at a snails pace. Of course the sail is also unlimited and capable of far more speed.

At full throttle we would get between 6-7 km/hour according to computer. With the motor off and my wife and I both pedaling briskly with Turbo Fins we'd get about the same 6-7 km/hour speed range. Both of us pedaling while running the 403 at full throttle we'd get 7-8km speed. Although I kind of expected that outcome based on the energy/speed graphs earlier in the thread it was still disappointing. On the other hand it was a hot day and we enjoyed being able to still move at a good clip without having to pedal constantly.

At high power usage (>200 watts) it felt like the motor/mount was vibrating a bunch and just didn't feel very secure. I'm not sure if this is normal or perhaps something in our mount needs improvement? I took a video but not sure if you can tell anything from it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF8-XIE ... e=youtu.be

We drained the battery down to 28% travelling 5 miles on the intracoastal. Then turned off the motor and sailed for about 1.5 hours in the gulf. During this time the solar panel only charged the battery 2% up to 30%. It was thinly overcast most of the time. I would only see the charging indicator on the computer when the panel was in full sunlight. At maximum output the panel should be able to charge the battery 15% every hour. Hopefully we will see those results on sunnier day.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:12 am 
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maltrease wrote:
We got the boat today and took it out for the first time. It has the 403 installed similar to this guide and also a 50 Watt Torqeedo brand solar panel.

Not much time with it yet, but a few things to note.

We started around 1pm with clear sun, 100% charged battery and the solar panel plugged in.

I believe the computer display shows the net power draw after factoring in the power supplied by the solar panel. With a minimal forward throttle we'd get the propeller spinning, showing 0 watt usage and the display showing the battery was actively being charged. Pushing the throttle forward a little more and charging stopped but it still showed 0 watts being drained. Pushing it slightly more and it began showing the watts being used and the range indicator before the battery would be drained.

It is fun to think of having an unlimited range as long as you move at a snails pace. Of course the sail is also unlimited and capable of far more speed.

At full throttle we would get between 6-7 km/hour according to computer. With the motor off and my wife and I both pedaling briskly with Turbo Fins we'd get about the same 6-7 km/hour speed range. Both of us pedaling while running the 403 at full throttle we'd get 7-8km speed. Although I kind of expected that outcome based on the energy/speed graphs earlier in the thread it was still disappointing. On the other hand it was a hot day and we enjoyed being able to still move at a good clip without having to pedal constantly.

At high power usage (>200 watts) it felt like the motor/mount was vibrating a bunch and just didn't feel very secure. I'm not sure if this is normal or perhaps something in our mount needs improvement? I took a video but not sure if you can tell anything from it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF8-XIE ... e=youtu.be

We drained the battery down to 28% travelling 5 miles on the intracoastal. Then turned off the motor and sailed for about 1.5 hours in the gulf. During this time the solar panel only charged the battery 2% up to 30%. It was thinly overcast most of the time. I would only see the charging indicator on the computer when the panel was in full sunlight. At maximum output the panel should be able to charge the battery 15% every hour. Hopefully we will see those results on sunnier day.

Why were you disappointed with the speed? The numbers you posted are perfectly normal and well within the expected range. No matter if you use an electric or gas motor, the pedals, the sail, or everything altogether, the TI is not a fast boat and never will be. It's a boat where you blissfully sail or cruise for hours on end all day long not going fast but enjoying every minute. Whenever the discussion of top speed comes up in this electric motor thread, I always say that if it's speed you're looking for, then the TI is the wrong boat for you. The only time the TI feels like it's going "fast" is on windy days, and then even though you're only going around 9-10 knots, it can feel very exhilarating.

The power output you received from the 50-watt solar panel also seems nominal. Solar panels don't always put out their full power but even if it did, 50 watts in real-world conditions would only give you around 1.9 knots or less. I greatly prefer simply using a second battery for faster speeds and increased range, and that's where I'd have put my money rather than a solar panel, but a steady 50 watts of power on a sunny day is nice to have. The only advantage I can see of purchasing a solar panel rather than an additional battery is if you're on an expedition and won't have nightly access to electricity to recharge the batteries. Other than that, purchasing an extra battery is more advantageous than spending money on a solar panel. You can always rely on battery power even on cloudy days, and a spare battery will provide a lot more available power than a solar panel possibly can.

I viewed the video and couldn't perceive the vibration you mentioned. There will always be a little vibration with any motor, but in my experience, the 403 is quite smooth at all speeds. If you're getting excessive vibration, you might have an unbalanced prop or there might be too much play in the steering controls. Try locking the 403 in place with no steering. If that eliminates/reduces the vibrations it might be your steering setup. The TI rudder is more than enough to steer the boat, you don't really need the 403 motor turning with it, it just adds some additional maneuverability.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:06 am 
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Regarding solar, you also have to really watch out for partial shading on the panel. Example, just shading 3 percent of the panel area might reduce the power output by 25 percent. 50 watts of solar really is not much when it comes to propulsion and with the sail shadow and even just the shadow of the mast, its simply hard to find a spot to put the panel where it even works effectively . I would agree with Pro10is, spend the money on more battery capacity.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:02 pm 
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pro10is wrote:
Why were you disappointed with the speed?

Sorry, I didn't write that very well. I wasn't disappointed in the boat speed. I was disappointed that our pedaling didn't have a meaningful impact vs. letting the motor do everything. I like getting exercise from the Hobie and it was demotivating to not have that effort result in a meaningful speed increase. I'm sure there is some combination of low wattage motor combined with gentle pedaling that would make sense towards approaching hull speed.

pro10is wrote:
I viewed the video and couldn't perceive the vibration you mentioned. There will always be a little vibration with any motor, but in my experience, the 403 is quite smooth at all speeds. If you're getting excessive vibration, you might have an unbalanced prop or there might be too much play in the steering controls. Try locking the 403 in place with no steering. If that eliminates/reduces the vibrations it might be your steering setup. The TI rudder is more than enough to steer the boat, you don't really need the 403 motor turning with it, it just adds some additional maneuverability.


This is my first experience with any boat motor so I don't have any basis to compare against. I'll try locking the 403 in place and disconnecting from the rudder controls to see how that changes things.

walt wrote:
Regarding solar, you also have to really watch out for partial shading on the panel. Example, just shading 3 percent of the panel area might reduce the power output by 25 percent. 50 watts of solar really is not much when it comes to propulsion and with the sail shadow and even just the shadow of the mast, its simply hard to find a spot to put the panel where it even works effectively . I would agree with Pro10is, spend the money on more battery capacity.


I do think partial shading was a problem yesterday, both from the clouds in the sky and the boat and other equipment on the trampoline. This morning I built a PVC mount for it so it can lay across the back, above a pair of waterproof bluetooth speakers. The panel charged the battery 20% over a 2 hour sailing session. I'll go check it again soon to see how much more power its generated over the afternoon.

Here is a picture of the setup - https://ibb.co/iK7pXd, I've lowered it all another inch to give a little more clearance to the main sail line.
[Edit] Updated pics
https://ibb.co/hBWSJJ
https://ibb.co/iKQXky

The main reason I got the solar panel is just that I think the idea of it so cool and I wanted to try it out first hand. However, I do think it will have practical value in reducing the amount of 'work' I need to do. The only thing needed to get a fully charged battery is patience. I don't need to break anything down, carry the battery inside, plug in, etc. I definitely agree that you would get more range for your $ buying batteries and plugging in each night vs. adding solar.


We are LOVING the Tandem Island! :)


Last edited by maltrease on Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:45 pm 
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Maybe that fancy Torqueedo control electronics will tell you how much current or power you are getting from the solar. If so, you could start with a partially discharged battery so that the controller will be trying to use as much power as the solar will put out.

Then see how little things like the sheet rope shadow over the panel affects the power output. Its hard to predict how much power you lose from shading but its very significant even for something as small as the sheet line shadow.

A narrow shadow along the edge of the solar panels from the PVC riser.. I would not be surprised at 50% reduction in generated power.


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