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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:50 am 
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Even on days where there was zero wind and I was too lazy or hot to pedal I've successfully used the 403 motor as the sole source of power for hours and miles on end. For this purpose it's best to cruise at about 3 to 4.5 mph to maximize range. Please reread my review and additional posts here and you'll see I have included motor only ranges at nominal speeds, so I don't why you say that information is missing. I specifically did not include ranges at full throttle only because this is not a realistic use of this motor and I did not test for this. Because of the physics of pushing a hull though water, the relationship of power to speed is not linear. Therefore if you continually try to push the boat as fast as possible at full throttle for long periods of time you will drain the battery much quicker. At full or near full throttle I estimate you will get only about 7 to 8 miles out of the 533 watt-hour battery, far less than the near 30 mile range you could get at about 3 to 4.5 mph. If I remember correctly the display read about 240 watts at full throttle but I will need to verify that because I'm not certain, so please don't quote me on that or start calculating more theoretical figures. The point you should take away from this is that you have the ability to very accurately control your range based upon how much power you wish to use at any given time. In realistic use you won't go full throttle all the time but you can when you wish to as long as you keep an eye on the display to ensure you have the remaining range you require. This is very simple to do and allows you to accurately tailor the use of the motor in real time.


Thanks.. this is more of what is interesting to me. FYI, Im a newly retired analog MS EE. Being retired with a TI = very good thing. You put a lot of effort into all of this post so once again.. dont want to take at all away from that and great info. Sometime it would be interesting to confirm what the watt meter says at the full speed.

FYI, in the TI outboard motor thread, a guy with the 1000 watt Torgueedo said this

Quote:
I have a Torqeedo 1003 on my TI. I forget what speed I got when testing, but in real world use I rarely see 7 MPH. Here are some static thrust figures: Honda 2.3 - 66, Torqeedo T1003 - 68, Suzuki 2.5 - 83. No idea how this translates into top speed. I also purposely made my mount with a tilt to bring the bottom of the motor higher out of the water when not in use, this surely slows me down some but not idea how much.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:58 am 
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one more observation since you have that nice "watt" reading with the Torqueedo..

I assume that the watt reading is accurate on the Torgueedo as well as the watt hour capacity listed on the battery.

You could also note the power used for a variety of speeds under ideal conditions of no wind, no pedal, no current. Then by some simple algebra, you could calculate the time that you could run at those watts given a particular watt*hour battery capacity and then given time and speed also calculate the distance you can travel. The numbers would all be applicable to the TI only since that is where the power measurement was made (which is what we care about here) and I think the numbers would also be reasonably accurate.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:05 pm 
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walt wrote:
one more observation since you have that nice "watt" reading with the Torqueedo..

I assume that the watt reading is accurate on the Torgueedo as well as the watt hour capacity listed on the battery.

You could also note the power used for a variety of speeds under ideal conditions of no wind, no pedal, no current. Then by some simple algebra, you could calculate the time that you could run at those watts given a particular watt*hour battery capacity and then given time and speed also calculate the distance you can travel. The numbers would all be applicable to the TI only since that is where the power measurement was made (which is what we care about here) and I think the numbers would also be reasonably accurate.

The Torqeedo display constantly calculates range for you in real time so I never saw the need to do it manually. And again, I wanted to present a real world review of the 403 and not get too academic. You and I are engineers and we like such data, but engineers are weird like that. Most people want information that is real to their actual use of a product, not charts and numbers of theoretical figures. The information I presented and the range data from Torqeedo should give anyone a very good feel for what the motor can do.

The actual power used at any given point in time has multiple dependencies even when used on the same boat: wind, waves, weight, weeds, currents, friction, and of course throttle position which on the 403 can be set to anything from zero to full throttle. All you have to do is turn the rudder slightly and the numbers will change. Only a computer could be fast enough to take in data changing that quickly and that often. The best I could do would be to try to get a set of generalized readings, but I'm not sure how accurate they would be. Where I sail it would be very rare for a perfect day for testing. And since such conditions are so rare I'm not sure what value it would be to anyone to present such data. It would not reflect the actual use.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:24 pm 
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I am interested in this battery but I can not add any length to my AI and still get it in the garage. How difficult is it to disconnect cables and swing the arm 180 degrees so as not to add storage length to the boat? Can that be done?

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2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:39 pm 
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vetgam wrote:
I am interested in this battery but I can not add any length to my AI and still get it in the garage. How difficult is it to disconnect cables and swing the arm 180 degrees so as not to add storage length to the boat? Can that be done?

It's very easy and can be done in less than a minute or two. You only need to remove the motor at the gimbal mount (one bolt) and disconnect the motor from the battery. I do this myself each time I use the boat. I'm working on designing a quick release for the bolt like that on the front wheel of a bicycle.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:47 am 
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Yesterday someone came up to me at the boat ramp and asked me if the 403 Ultralight vibrates. He said the vibrations from his gas outboard setup on his TI annoyed him more even than the noise. I didn't even realize this was an issue.

So if any of you have the same question, the answer is no, the 403 Ultralight has no vibration, it's very smooth in operation. Once in a while when a wave or strong current hits it just right or during a sharp turn it will slightly shudder, but you have to be very perceptive to feel it.

I'll update the original review to include this information.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:39 am 
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Location: Jaco, Costa Rica
pro10is wrote:
Yesterday someone came up to me at the boat ramp and asked me if the 403 Ultralight vibrates. He said the vibrations from his gas outboard setup on his TI annoyed him more even than the noise. I didn't even realize this was an issue.


Have no idea what that individual is talking about. Never been an issue on my TI, but the mount is solid.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:31 pm 
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My cheap and cheerful Chinese 2 stroke outboard is loud, and vibrates a bit. However, it is mounted on my wooden haka, which is in turn sitting on 10mm closed cell foam pads on the akas. I certainly cannot feel any vibration through to the hull (or even much on the motor cowling actually).

I can't help thinking that for an outlay of under AU$230 (reduced now to AU$207, which is way under US150!) nothing from Torqeedo or any other electric alternative, comes close to petrol power.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:25 am 
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tonystott wrote:
My cheap and cheerful Chinese 2 stroke outboard is loud, and vibrates a bit. However, it is mounted on my wooden haka, which is in turn sitting on 10mm closed cell foam pads on the akas. I certainly cannot feel any vibration through to the hull (or even much on the motor cowling actually).

I can't help thinking that for an outlay of under AU$230 (reduced now to AU$207, which is way under US150!) nothing from Torqeedo or any other electric alternative, comes close to petrol power.

Chinese motors work great until they don't. They may work for 3 years or 3 days, you never know because they lack quality control. They're throw away motors because unless a company with some name recognition backs them up, it's very hard to find any parts for them. But for the price they're impossible to compete with.

The downside is that once everyone starts using them and they become the norm, quality as we now know it will be gone. This is already occurring in the generator and pressure washer markets where it's getting harder and harder to find decently priced models without an unbranded Chinese motor.

Stay away from Chinese motors for as long as you can or else they'll take over the market like they did with almost everything else.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:12 am 
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And they said much the same about Japanese, Taiwanese and Korean manufactured products. Check out the nationality of the top five brands in the JD Power survey. ..

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:06 am 
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tonystott wrote:
And they said much the same about Japanese, Taiwanese and Korean manufactured products. Check out the nationality of the top five brands in the JD Power survey. ..

What point are you trying to make? The only thing those countries have in common is that they are Asian. Are you saying that because China is in Asia they will have similar quality as products in other countries in Asia? I'm not following your reasoning. That's like saying products from Canada, US, Mexico, Cuba, El Salvatore, and Nicaragua share similar quality because they are all in North America. Being in the same continent is no bases for a comparison of product quality.

Everyone knows first hand that China sells products based primarily on price, not quality. Unless some name brand company is closely monitoring quality control, Chinese products are certainly not noted for quality. But they are cheap.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:12 am 
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Great review and info, I thank you very much
I ordered the evolve as I think it will fit my needs better

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:10 pm 
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pro10is wrote:
tonystott wrote:
And they said much the same about Japanese, Taiwanese and Korean manufactured products. Check out the nationality of the top five brands in the JD Power survey. ..

What point are you trying to make? The only thing those countries have in common is that they are Asian. Are you saying that because China is in Asia they will have similar quality as products in other countries in Asia? I'm not following your reasoning. That's like saying products from Canada, US, Mexico, Cuba, El Salvatore, and Nicaragua share similar quality because they are all in North America. Being in the same continent is no bases for a comparison of product quality.

Everyone knows first hand that China sells products based primarily on price, not quality. Unless some name brand company is closely monitoring quality control, Chinese products are certainly not noted for quality. But they are cheap.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth and turn it into some sort of race issue. The fact that they are Asian is a total coincidence.

Anybody with a modicum of knowledge knows that some countries have moved (starting chronologically with Japan, Hongkong, then Taiwan and South Korea) into the manufacturing age following a pattern.
1. Copy or obtain obsolete tooling to produce often quaint products.
2. Develop designers and/or employ designers from established sources.
3. Produce similar products but at lower prices due to lesser labour costs
4. Build new factories employing latest robotic technology
5. Produce products extremely competitive in every way with those produced from the established sources.

It is a worthwhile exercise to closely check the real sources of many, many "brand name" products. To unilaterally dismiss Chinese products as inferior is either ignorant or something worse. Remember when the world laughed at the early manufacturing and design efforts of Japan?

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:03 am 
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tonystott wrote:
pro10is wrote:
tonystott wrote:
And they said much the same about Japanese, Taiwanese and Korean manufactured products. Check out the nationality of the top five brands in the JD Power survey. ..

What point are you trying to make? The only thing those countries have in common is that they are Asian. Are you saying that because China is in Asia they will have similar quality as products in other countries in Asia? I'm not following your reasoning. That's like saying products from Canada, US, Mexico, Cuba, El Salvatore, and Nicaragua share similar quality because they are all in North America. Being in the same continent is no bases for a comparison of product quality.

Everyone knows first hand that China sells products based primarily on price, not quality. Unless some name brand company is closely monitoring quality control, Chinese products are certainly not noted for quality. But they are cheap.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth and turn it into some sort of race issue. The fact that they are Asian is a total coincidence.

Anybody with a modicum of knowledge knows that some countries have moved (starting chronologically with Japan, Hongkong, then Taiwan and South Korea) into the manufacturing age following a pattern.
1. Copy or obtain obsolete tooling to produce often quaint products.
2. Develop designers and/or employ designers from established sources.
3. Produce similar products but at lower prices due to lesser labour costs
4. Build new factories employing latest robotic technology
5. Produce products extremely competitive in every way with those produced from the established sources.

It is a worthwhile exercise to closely check the real sources of many, many "brand name" products. To unilaterally dismiss Chinese products as inferior is either ignorant or something worse. Remember when the world laughed at the early manufacturing and design efforts of Japan?

No issue of race was intended or implied, I don't know why you mentioned that. We're talking strictly product quality here.

The Chinese have been manufacturing much of the world's products for many, many years now but unlike Japan and even South Korea they have yet to gain widespread acceptance as a supplier of high quality goods. Their quality ranges from acceptable to abysmal but is rarely considered high quality. Their goal is to undersell the rest of the world and thus gain huge market share. They have been very successful at this.

No one can yet seriously compare the quality of a GuangZhou, Fuzhou or Zhejiang motor against a Honda, Mercury, or Yamaha. I may have no choice purchasing many items from China since, even with many brand names, they are now the only source of goods. But where I do have a choice, and where it matters, I will choose quality over economy while I still can.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:54 pm 
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Location: Sunshine Coast Australia
Hi

Does anyone have an idea on the solar panel connection. I am form Australia and the actually motor is quite expensive here AUD 2750 (US 2090) but I am resolved to purchase it my concern is the cost of the panel. I am a renewable energy designer so I don't see the value in the price they want for a 45W panel.

So my question is does anyone now is it a 12v (nominal) panel that inputs to the system. Does the system then have a DC to DC conversion to bring the voltage up to a level that can charge the system. Or is the panel a 24v (nominal) panel? 2 X 45 W (assuming a series connection to bring the voltage up) flexible panels that could easily be attached to the tramps would only cost about AUD250 as opposed to AUD1650 for 1 x 45W.

Cheers


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