Return to Hobie.com

Hobie Forums

It is currently Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:39 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:07 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 99
Searched, nothing found

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:16 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:41 am
Posts: 91
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwigk5u1167SAhVmFMAKHfVvCkYQjxwIAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hobiecat.com%2Fforums%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D70%26t%3D7276%26p%3D256156&psig=AFQjCNGRssR3Cl9Bn0cLpHp8Le7O9e2Sqg&ust=1488230121993582&cad=rjt

_________________
2015 Tandem Island - Golden Papaya "HALIBOO"
(retired) Outback - Hibiscus Red
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:13 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 99
Haliboo wrote:

Thank you.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:16 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 8:53 am
Posts: 699
Location: Paoli Pennsylvania - East Coast USA
The AI is the most stable multihull I have sailed (Hobie 14's, Hobie 16's, P-Cat, Hawaiian-style outrigger canoe) but anybody who sails one expecting to never capsize is, IMHO, tempting fate...... Stuff does happen.... Maybe not very often, but it happens.

Done bare-bones, righting is moderately-challenging-to-impossible depending on conditions and user fitnesss.

OTOH, I would opine that righting is reasonable (maybe even trivial) for most people under most conditions with proper righting lines.

My 2015 AI will capsize in a heartbeat when an aka shearpin breaks - and they do break when the ama hits the right chop at the right angle/speed.... Been there, done that more than just a few times, twice in one day, even.... I am also pretty sure it will eventually pitchpole surfing the right 4' boat wake at the right angle.

So it is prudent to count on having to right your AI eventually, if not frequently.

I combined righting lines and keep-out lines in a setup that could be accused of wretched excess; but I find it easy to rig/de-rig and it has worked well in tests - both keep-out (several actual shearpin failures) and recovery from semi-turtle (mast stuck in several feet of bay mud).

One feature of my lines that I value is that they enable me to right the boat without getting out of the water (i.e. clambering upon to a hull) and without needing much hand strength go grab the rope (the rope cradles my body and I just push on the ama with both feet and lean back)..... There's a pause while the cam effect of the line crossing the turtled hulls is almost nil, but once the far ama breaks loose of the water, the whole boat rotates easily with my body weight laying in the water pulling it - so I think it is more amenable to heavy air and heavy chop than single-line systems that require mounting the capsized hull.

After one shearpin break (capsize prevented by keep-out lines), I tried just gently sailing without the pin about a half-mile to a lee shore: no problem.

I have also tried temporary shearpin replacements with one of the handful of chopsticks I keep in one of the cockpit stashes - also with success, although I did manage to shear one chopstick with hard upwind sailing into heavy chop.... The idea of the chopsticks is instant installation and then getting to a beach where one is less likely to fumble and drop the replacement pin...... They also seem to work as temporary rudder pins although I have yet to test one under load on the water - preferring the steering paddle workaround to the prospect of maybe losing contact with the boat during pin replacement.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


Last edited by PeteCress on Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:41 am, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:49 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2695
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Some time ago, I posted the following video, and Matt added it to the Island FAQ section. It has disappeared from there now (but the empty post remains). Matt, can you please add it again permanently? Thanks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XjdqMUjbms&t=2s
[youtube2]v=_XjdqMUjbms&t=2s[youtube2]

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:57 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 3066
Location: Kailua 96734
There is a new righting system you may want to try. https://streamable.com/516tp

_________________
The Wind Is Your Friend... Friends Can Be Fickle


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:36 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 8:53 am
Posts: 699
Location: Paoli Pennsylvania - East Coast USA
tonystott wrote:
Keep-out lines SOLVE the problem 100%

I would qualify that to say "Properly-Tensioned Keep-out lines SOLVE the problem 100%".

I was feeling pretty smug about my own keep-out lines - having broken maybe a half-dozen shear bolts last season without capsize.

Fast-forward to this season... I sheared a bolt and then thought, "Let's see how well those chopsticks work for getting to the beach."

Inserted a bamboo chopstick, sailed away and then thought "Let's test this thing to failure... just to see how much it can take."

It was one of those "Interesting" days with gusts into the low thirties and sure enough, I managed to shear the chopstick just as a killer gust caught me.

Bottom Line:
Full turtle, mast stuck five feet into the bay mud.

My Take-Away:
The keep-out lines and/or associated bungees had probably stretched a little.... also, I had integrated keep-out with righting lines and the setup was needlessly complex.

Went back to Chekika's simple setup... and now we'll see...

But there is also the prospect of pitch-poling. ... I have tried a few times to do that, but failed so far... but on another "Interesting" day last Thursday, I felt like I came pretty close and would never say "Never"...

FWIW, the bamboo chopstick works like a charm as long as one exercises a little common sense power-wise and heads for shore... It's quick and easy to insert...

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:36 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:20 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Pula - Sardinia
Hi Pete. since you (as many others including me) use the keep out lines and u experienced the break of the pin in real conditions could you pls tell me something about the characteristic of the lines? i often wondered if my 2 mm rope is enough for this task or maybe i should use a stronger line.
i also added a bungee to the line in order to give some elasticity to the tensioning.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:24 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2673
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
The reasons for the keepout lines is because of where the sheer bolt is located on the AKA bars. In my own testing I determined that it takes around 150 lbs of impact force on the AMA itself to sheer the nylon pin. This is all well and fine in light conditions and the sheer bolt is unlikely to sheer off during normal operation. However I discovered in testing that the sheer bolt deforms slightly with repeated smaller impacts ,( ie... like hitting surf and boat wakes). Basically the shear bolt is a ticking time bomb, where the initial sheer force on a new pin might be 150 lbs, the pin will also fail and break after say 6 100 lb hits, or maybe 12 75lb hits. Nobody can predict when it will eventually fail, but it will fail with certainty eventually. For this reason some guys regularly replace their sheer pins as a matter of regular maint, (a wise idea).
Some people just replace the nylon pin with a stainless pin. I don't advise doing this, the sheer pin was designed in there for a very good reason. Because of where the brace is positioned 1/3 of the length of the AKA bar, all forces applied to the AMA are tripled. So in other words the force on that little ball standing up on the gunwale is 150 x 3 = 450 lbs of force. It just happens the force required to fold and elbow the rear AKA bar is about the same force as required to knock the little ball, or rip the hull, or fold the AKA bar, you can't predetermine which will occur, if any of those 3 things happen the boat becomes un sailable, and is likely a very expensive repair, (basically your down and out till you order replacement components).
It's best in my opinion to allow the sheer bolt to break, then all force is translated to the aka knuckles, which can withstand thousands of lbs of force. However the result is always boat capsize, ( lol the boat saves itself from further damage, however you end up going for a swim).
The only purpose of the keeput lines is in the event of a sheer pin break, the keepout line prevents the AKA from folding in all the way, so you can stop and replace the sheer pin, then get yourself underway again. I have sheered many dozens of sheer pins, (my TI is sooped up just a little).
It's not the design of the safety lines that is important, (you can use any line you like), it's where the safety lines are placed. Directly from the bow, AKA crossbar, or some rigid attachment on the hull to the AMA itself. The force on the safety line is not amplified by it's location, (the force is 1=1).
Lol I sail by the brail method and have collided with many docks, anchor balls, channel markers (especially at night), and the occational million dollar yacht parked in harbor, (boy do they get testy). Every time it sheers the nylon bolt, but I have never capsized, typically the line works like a shock obsorber and stops the boats forward motion, that's exactly what you want to happen.
These boats are incredibly durable.
Hope this explains the reasoning behind the keepout lines. With keepout lines installed, the likelyhood of boat capsize is greatly deminished.
FE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:45 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:20 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Pula - Sardinia
i connected the safety line from the bow to the aka (near the attachment with the ama).
since i cannot manage very well with the forse stress test i just wanted to know which size of line is ok, supposing that some sizes cannot be strong enough to keep the ama from folding and too big lines can be an exaggeration


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:08 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 8:53 am
Posts: 699
Location: Paoli Pennsylvania - East Coast USA
Sardinian Islander wrote:
Hi Pete. since you (as many others including me) use the keep out lines and u experienced the break of the pin in real conditions could you pls tell me something about the characteristic of the lines? i often wondered if my 2 mm rope is enough for this task or maybe i should use a stronger line.
i also added a bungee to the line in order to give some elasticity to the tensioning.
I do not like the look of 2mm rope - not because of strength. .... It's plenty strong..... It's just that I am averse to having lines that can cut into me in stressful situations.

Right now, I am using Home Depot's most el-cheapo junk 1/2" braided line buffered with Home Depot's 1" wide bungees.

Lines tied to the akas where then enter the amas using a bowline and connected to the bungees on the bow shackle using fastex connectors - which gives me the same length with each setup and saves a few seconds of setup time.

Intuitively it seems to me like a certain amount of shock absorption is necessary, but I got into trouble with too much last summer and the aka folded enough to capsize me.

My current setup allows me to pull the ama eight inches aft before I hear creaking and groaning sounds.

Now that I know I have the length right (or, at least not too short) next on the to-do list is spending the big bucks on quality 1/2" line.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: Confirm@FatBelly.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:29 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:19 am
Posts: 340
Location: Australia
Add me to the list of users who isn't terribly keen on putting faith in those nylon shear pins for the kind of usage I tend to give my AI. I do think that 'safety lines' as you guys like to refer to them is a pretty good measure to take, but it isn't something that will work for everyone. For example, I need the ability to fold the amas in order to pull up fish. I have been using stainless clevis pins for years and have never once had an issue with them, and I'm not averse to using my AI in some pretty rough conditions. However I am very aware that by doing this I have removed the 'fuse' so to speak. If I have a rough surf landing (which I'll avoid at any cost) or sail into a solid object at high speed (not likely to happen) I am going to break something else - something that is going to be far more expensive to fix. But this is a consequence I am willing to take (I believe it is the lesser evil when compared to that of a surprise capsize at sea).

The advice I give to new customers when they purchase a new Island is thus:

Be aware that those shear pins are called shear pins for a reason - they are meant to break in the event of high impact in order to prevent something else from breaking. This is why the boat is supplied with spares, installed on the braces and more in the warranty pack. However this does mean that if a leeward aka pin shears, the akas will collapse and the boat will likely capsize, and with a quickness at that. So, when getting started with a new AI try to refrain from using the boat in rough conditions for a while at least (and avoid surf like the plague) and use those supplied shear pins until you reach the point that you are confident that you are not likely to sail into a solid object. Consider installing some kind of safety line to for back up bracing and if that works out for you, continue to use them, especially when you venture into rougher conditions. If you decide you want/need the ability to fold the amas quickly then look into using a stainless bolt or pin. But be aware that if you do this, the potential for more expensive breakages is there and this will void any warranty related to components it effects. So if you do this, keep in mind that you must at all times be aware that rough surf or high impacts could very well cause far more damage to your boat than an otherwise inexpensive shear pin.

_________________
Blue Water Kayak Fishing guy: SL Hobie
http://slhobie.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:51 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:46 am
Posts: 230
Location: Sweden, sjöbo
Very interesting and useful discussion with lots of ideas and info. Thanks Guys! :)

I am adding a third aka that is placed diagonally from the new aka crossbar (behind the rear seat) out to the end of the "midde" aka. This will give full support for the longitudal forces involved. (Therfore I will keep the nylon shear pins and do not see the use for keepout lines on my TI.)
The tramps vill also stabilize the akas and help keeping them from unintentionally folding in if all else would fail! :shock:

I am just now designing the attachment brackets between the end of the third extra diagonal aka arms and the outer end of the "middle" original aka.
I have been giving this some thought but I still have a hard time to decide if this attachment should be rigid or flexible?? :?
On my TI the risk of unintensionally folding an ama and capsizing is minimal. But the risk of damage to amas/akas when beaching if they are mounted fully solid is a bit of a risk. :o

If I keep the nylon bolts and attach the extra aka arms with a bungee system it will allow some movement if the TI should ram hard into something! :shock: Some flexibility will lessen the impact forces I guess?

If the conditions are rough when headning into shore maybe it might also be a wise move to detach the extra aka arms before the landning and so if needed sacrificing the nylon shear bolts if I should crash the TI in the surf?

I am also allways using safety lines that secures the akas from sliding out of the cross bar. This has happened on two occasions when they did not "clic in" securely ans slid out. was not sailing at the time only pedaling so fortunately I did not capzise! :D

Using a drift sock when landing going through the surf is another good idea.... helps keep the kayak straight to avoid getting sideways and roll the yak!! :shock:

Sail safe!
:)
/Gustav

_________________
Sailing my TI and fishing.... thats bliss!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:11 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:59 pm
Posts: 578
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW, Australia
It's very stable but if humans try or structure fails they can upend.
Like a young friend who knew nothing about sailing steering his brand new AI straight down the face of a following swell in 18 knots and all sail out.
Of course it Pearled and the wind pushed it over.
He was a big, strong young man and it took him 20 minutes to right the AI.
Another 35-year-old woman whos AKA popped out in good conditions and rolled over took the same amount of time to right.

I am old and sick and would have little chance of doing it on calm lake.
Just don't sail in strong conditions and use less sail if you are caught in them and you're AI will stay up.

_________________
Fair Skies, Max.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group