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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:12 pm 
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I have read several years of posts and viewed the video on righting it, but still have to ask...

I have sailed a number of small boats over the years, and don't mind risking a capsize if I know I can right it easily enough. In fact, I find they almost never capsize, but lose their wind before that happens; but it is very comforting to know I can right it. OTOH, I now have a boat that is difficult to right, I fear every little 90 degree wind shift that threatens the boat.
My lake has plenty of 90 degree wind shifts.

So... how stable is the AI? I read one guy that said he has tried to capsize it, but never succeeded. That would be nice, but I suspect he hasn't tried real hard. So, how stable is it?

How easy is it to right? I watched the video, and he didn't have a sail on the boat, which makes it rather more difficult. Also I understand they have made the floaty things rather bigger and heavier, which should also make it more difficult. And he didn't seem to have an easy time of it. So, how easy is it?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:50 am 
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I have sailed an AI for 5 years at least once weekly mostly in bays and offshore. I sail with winds up to 20 mph. I have never capsized. The pre 2015 AIs are less stable because the amas are a bit smaller- still, I sailed a pre2015 AI for 4 years and never capsized. The ability to partially furl the main to match the wind conditions makes this boat as stable as you want it to be.

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“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:25 am 
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I have sailed in conditions so tough that people on a coastal lookout called our Marine Rescue tower. Meanwhile, I was out there having fun.

As vetgam says, the ability to furl th sail makes Islands immensely safer that virtually ANY other trailerable boat, sail or power.

Difficult to tip over, quite easy to get back on its feet by simply following the actions shown in the videos.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:20 am 
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Toller, Islands capsize almost solely because a Hobie stock, aka-brace shear pin has broken. If that happens, and you do not have keep-out lines, tramps, or hakas, capsize is likely as the aka/ama folds along the hull offering no stabilizing support. It all can happen very fast on a windy day...I mean in 4-7 seconds, you are in the water.

Keith

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:24 am 
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Chekika wrote:
Toller, Islands capsize almost solely because a Hobie stock, aka-brace shear pin has broken. If that happens, and you do not have keep-out lines, tramps, or hakas, capsize is likely as the aka/ama folds along the hull offering no stabilizing support. It all can happen very fast on a windy day...I mean in 4-7 seconds, you are in the water.

Keith


How common is that?
Is the problem covered in more detail somewhere?

I once had a Styrofoam Snark break in half in the middle of the lake. It took me a few seconds to figure out why I was in the water.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:17 am 
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Toller, I have no idea how common it is. There are no records kept, as far as I know. Obviously, participation on this forum is only by a portion of the Hobie owners.

The problem comes about because, in the 2015 AI (AI 2) and later, the boat is more powerful and heavier, but Hobie's aka-brace shear pin is the same one used on Hobie's original AI, the AI 2, and the Tandem--3 very different boats. It is not surprising the AI 2 with its increased speed plows an aka-ama into a wave in such a way, that the pin breaks. When that happens, if you are not watching that aka-ama, it instantly folds along the hull, the boat capsizes, and you are in the water--in the blink of an eye.

To avoid the shear-pin breakage problem, you need a stronger shear pin. To avoid the capsize, you need "keep out" lines, tramps, or hakas installed.

Keith

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Firstly, to address Toller's main question.. Hobie's Tandem Island and Adventure Island are not capsizing left and right, and it is very rare that we hear of one going over. I venture to say that Islands are FAR less likely to capsize that any of Hobie's cats. This is due to two main factors:- reefable sail, and semi-submersible outrigger. The ONLY negative, is the sacrificial plastic brace pin supplied by Hobie to lessen more expensive damage if the outrigger collides with something (solid wave, pylon etc). A forum like this does not really represent the general mass of Island owners (many probably don't even know of the forum's existence), but I would venture to suggest that the great majority of users have never capsized one, or even know first-hand of one).

So this forum represents the small percentage of Island owners who are vocal/enthusiastic about their vessel. So please do not assume that what you read about here is common across the huge number of happy customers.

I have to say it must be time we stop obsessing about the relative strength of the brace pins.

The standard pins (or even stronger ones) are PERFECTLY ADEQUATE for the job, IF THEY ARE ACCOMPANIED BY KEEP OUT LINES.

I do not believe ANY Island should venture into any rough water, without keep-out lines.

Stronger pins are no substitute.

For goodness sake, keep-out lines will cost less than five bucks. That, is a real bargain for peace of mind.

Small print... if you fit stronger pins, and THESE let go (anything is possible), the resultant capsize will be way more violent. I therefore strongly recommend AGAINST fitting stronger pins UNLESS keep-out lines are also fitted.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:12 pm 
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tonystott wrote:
if you fit stronger pins, and THESE let go (anything is possible), the resultant capsize will be way more violent. I therefore strongly recommend AGAINST fitting stronger pins UNLESS keep-out lines are also fitted.

Tony, I'm not sure how you know the "capsize will be way more violent?" The stronger pins I'm talking about are probably 10-15% stronger, hardly radical. Let's have some common sense here. Hobie sold the AI in 2006. It had the current shear pin. Then, they come out with the tandem about 2010, BUT SAME SHEAR PIN. In 2015 they came out with the AI 2, a faster, heavier boat than the original AI, but still the original shear pin. I don't think Hobie was thinking of the Tandem and AI 2 when they selected the shear pin for that first AI, so I am amazed that on these newer, larger boats, we still have the original shear pin--the weak point on the original AI.

If people want to read about my shear pin break and subsequent capsize, go here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=54465&start=15

If you want to read about some of the modifications I've made to avoid this experience, go here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=750

If you want to see the pins I'm recommending, go toward the end of the page here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=930

I've owned 3 different AIs, one AI 2, and a Tandem. When I capsized, I lost on the order of $2500 worth of gear and personal items. Strengthening the shear pin is one simple modification to avoid an unexpected capsized and loss of gear and personal items. Yes, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. In my opinion, one broken aka-brace shear pin in open seas is absolutely unnecessary. People and gear are being put at risk. Checkout Alarcas video:



Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:05 am 
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Keith, I fear that you still don't get it...

Keep-out lines SOLVE the problem 100%
Different pins DON'T necessarily.

Result. Fit keep-out lines. Muck around with different pins, AS A SECONDARY issue.

I would truly hate anybody to fit stronger pins and assume they have solved the issue, only to have a capsize because the stronger pin broke (or the aka bent due to the pin not failing).

That WON'T be the outcome if keep-out lines are fitted.

Keith, don't YOU have keep-out lines on your own AI2 (in fact, didn't you even coin the term "keep-out lines"?)

Also, my comment about the capsize being much more violent, think about it, the later the pin goes, the more pent-up energy will be suddenly released. I don't ever want to find out gow much more violent, hence I fit keep-out lines too.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:14 am 
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Keep-out lines solve the capsize problem, if people use keep-out lines and if they work properly. BUT, why put up with broken shear pins in open waters? My guess is that less than 5% Hobie owners use keep-out lines. Anyone can put in a stronger shear pin and have that added security independent of whether they use keep-out lines. Occasionally, I go out and realize I forgot to attach my keep out lines, but my stronger shear pin is still there. That is my point, Tony. Why not strengthen the boat? What is the harm? Why put up with a broken shear pin in open waters if a slightly stronger pin avoids the problem? Again, check out Alarcas video to see the trouble people can get into due to a broken shear pin in open waters.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:07 pm 
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Keith, your argument against relying on keep-out lines is as valid as arguing that we shouldn't rely on hull bungs. If people are so forgetful that they don't rig their Island completely, they better start using checklists, before they forget something else.

Sure stronger pins might help if you forget (or don't bother with) keep-out lines, but you have yourself confirmed that keep-out lines are safest.

So what percentage of users fit stronger pins? Just as irrelevant as the number who use keep-out lines I suspect...

If somebody forgets to use their keep-out lines and capsizes as a result, well all I can say is there is no cure for stupid.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:53 pm 
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TONY! Nobody is arguing against keep-out lines! Geezuz, this is frustrating. Please read my posts! Tell me, where I've argued against keep-out lines. That is ridiculous. If I say strengthen the shear pin, HOW is that an argument against keep-out lines. Again, why not strengthen the boat with a stronger shear pin? What is the harm?

This thread has served its purpose. It is now a waste of time. I'm done!

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:01 am 
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Well, I'm almost done. All this talk about keep-out lines and stronger brace pins should be clarified. Stronger brace pins help to PREVENT brace pin breaks, especially in open water. Proper keep-out lines prevent a capsize if a brace pin fails, again, in rough waters. One (the stronger brace pin) is preventive, the other (keep-out lines) is a safety measure after a brace pin breaks. Two very different safety measures.

Fusioneng encouraging people for a couple years to install keep-out lines, but it was not until my capsize of my new 2015 AI 2 with much loss of gear and personal items, that the "keep-out line" safety mod took hold.

At the start of the 2015 south Florida camping season, Tom Lackner (aka BidGood, Flaneur) proposed replacing the stock Hobie brace shear pin with a Nylatron pin. I posted about it on this page: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=780 At that time, Nylatron pins cost $4.00. Currently, they are over $9/ea. That is ridiculous, especially when you can obtain a 1/4" x 20 nylon bolt at your local Ace Hardware for 50 cents each. These 1/4" nylon bolts should be good replacements for the Hobie stock shear pin. I posted about this bolt towards the bottom of the page here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=930

As there are increasing reports of shear-pin breaks in open water, it makes sense to replace the stock Hobie shear pin with a stronger 6/6 nylon bolt. I can still remember my Grandmother's admonition: "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Yes, keep-out lines are important, but I like preventing the problem in the first place.

Finally, anyone who thinks righting an AI/TI in rough waters is easy, needs to get out in the real world and do it. In my 2015 capsize write-up, I referred to it as "routine," but I would never act like it was easy. It depends on (1) conditions--how rough and cold are the seas, (2) your physical condition--perhaps the most important, (3) passengers on board--no one should ever lose contact with the capsized boat, you will never get back to it in rough seas, and (4) how much gear are you trying to recover during and after the capsize. For the WaterTribe Everglades Challenge, entrants must declare that they can right and recover their capsized boat. Can you?

Hopefully, I am truly done now.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:03 pm 
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Is there a DIY keep-out line on this forum

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:39 am 
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If you search keep out lines then you will find lots of information - search function is your friend.

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