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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Location: South Florida
pro10is wrote:
Chekika wrote:
...In years of sailing the AI, AI2, and TI's, I've never heard of a TI capsizing. Fit them with keep out lines and there should be very little danger...approaching zero possibility...

You've never heard of a TI capsizing?? This is simply not true Keith, you know that. Right here in this forum there have been several reports of TI's capsizing, mostly from aka shear pin instances, but some without.

I do not like being called a liar, pro10is. I stand by what I said. Any AI/TI can insta-capsize when an aka brace pin breaks. Extending the length of the akas will not change that. Extending the length of the akas will allow users to stress other parts of the boat in severe weather conditions.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:03 pm 
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Posts: 249
Location: Sweden, sjöbo
I find the extensions very interesting but I do have some concern about the added loads on the akas and aka cross bars. ( they seem a bit weak )
I have seen quite a lot of pics from broken aka cross bars that have cracked and split up at the ends. If I add any extentions I will surely also strenghten the ends of the crossbars.
I am looking into working with carbon fiber and are considering strengthening the aka tubes aswell wrapping them up with carbon on the outside.

I have never capsized but my sailing experiance is so far very limited with only half a year of using the TI. But I do get the feeling that capsizing is very likely if not hiking out and sailing solo from the rear seat in harder gusty winds.
Adding an extension seems like a good idea but not if it increases the possibility of hardware failiure/damage.
Will be following this closely.

Hope to read more from you Cobra IP how the extensions work and if you have any problems with the mod! Very nice work!

To evolve we have to dear try new stuff!
Go for it!

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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 562
Location: Colorado
This is one of the mods where you maybe should have bought a bigger boat in the first place.. Things may snowball and you end up having to modify a bunch of other stuff (not to mention the "little" issue with the warranty - at least the rudder and seats are still covered). On the other hand.. it also seems like it would be nice as long as you dont bust something else. And.. nice job on the implementation. If its faster you are looking for, maybe one of the larger beach cats would have been a better choice.


FYI, until a post recently, I had actually never heard of a capsize from solo rear seat on the TI - that did not involve a shear pin breaking. I have heard of a TI pitch pole single hand from the front seat however without the sheer pin breaking. Even with tramps, if you dont have time to simply release the sheet, you definitely dont have to time to climb out to a haka or tramp. Your body weight has much better leverage for preventing a pitch pole from the rear seat.

At some point you also have to take responsibility for what conditions you decide to go out in. I have had a variety of sailboats up to 26 foot and if it gets wild, by far the TI is my choice for what to be on. Even then there are limits and its simple to just reef the sail.. no more problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:11 am 
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Chekika wrote:
I do not like being called a liar, pro10is. I stand by what I said. Any AI/TI can insta-capsize when an aka brace pin breaks. Extending the length of the akas will not change that. Extending the length of the akas will allow users to stress other parts of the boat in severe weather conditions.

Keith

Keith, I never called you a liar nor would I. I've always admired and appreciated your posts. I was simply very perplexed by your statement that you've never heard of a TI capsizing when there are such accounts right here in this forum as well as on YouTube which you yourself have noted. Perhaps you meant that you never heard of a TI capsizing without an aka failure? Other than my near capsize this has almost happened to others here including kleake and TI_Tom.

You also have recounted the time that you capsized in an AI and lost $2,500 worth of gear and have since been a champion of resolving the shear pin issue. I greatly admired your stance on this and your courage defending it against some vocal critics here. I agreed with everything you stated and took your advice to replace the pins with the stronger nylon bolts you specified. Thank you for this excellent advice, this has worked well, I've since never had another problem with the shear pins. The shear pin issue needs to be resolved because many TI owners who do not read this forum may not know about or utilize keep out lines and I feel their safety could potentially be in danger. Your stance on this issue was inspirational and could ultimately save someone's life.

Like you, I am just trying to find and support ways of making the TI safer if at all possible after my near capsize, and like you I'm prepared to take criticism for it if necessary. I hope you continue to champion the shear pin issue and I will stand with you if you do.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:44 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
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Location: South Florida
Thanks for your comments pro10is. I perhaps overreacted a bit.

I have been a champion of the phrase: "we all sail in different waters." Where I sail in south Florida, it is seldom over 10-15' deep. And, while we can certainly have very rough, even frightening weather, wave heights are probably rarely more than 4-5'. Others, sailing in deeper water, need to take necessary precautions.

I'm also a champion of the basic, factory-issue AI2 and TI. Hardened with keep-out lines, stronger aka-brace pins, righting lines, non-leaking front hatch, I think these boats are very stable and safe. Of course, everyone has their own thoughts, and, if you are sailing in colder waters, you may feel other hardening is necessary. As I say, we all sail in different waters.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:54 am 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 12472
Location: Oceanside, California
Quote:
This is a safety option that I feel Hobie should endorse and perhaps even manufacture and sell themselves rather than distance themselves from.


It is not a safety option if it adds stress to the boat. The best option to achieve more stability is reduced sail area and that is built into the rig system... furl the sail a bit when the wind comes up.

In addition, The wider you go in cats and tris the more apt to flip forward over the bows... pitch pole.

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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2981
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Jeeze guys talk about controversy.

I did that AKA extension mod quite a while ago and just mentioned it it passing, I would never expect anyone else to do any of the mods I do. Everything I do is solely for my own purposes, and all intended to increase the efficiency of my human powered peddle craft to the point where I can expend as much energy as I can personally produce as a really old overweight way out of shape human (realistically I can produce right around 1/2 horsepower peddling at around 45 cpm (cycle per minute) for around 10-12 hrs). If you equate that to peddling a TI under human power with no wind or sails on flat water with no current the boat goes 2-3 miles per hour. So peddling 10 hours steady lets say down the Mississippi ( about 1200 miles in total) I can cover around 20-25 miles per day. I can't count on any wind or current because wind and current are both highly unpredictable. Or lets say I want to go from Sarasota to Key west following the intercoastal, then island hop the keys (staying close to shore). In Florida you sometimes have wind, but 80% of the time here the wind is under 7mph, (especially at night).
Also if there is any wind especially if the wind is against you, (predominant winds here are from the south),in most cases this hurts, not helps you, (most of the time this is the case). So it is critically important to have a boat who's efficiency increases upwind, (not decreases), and you should not need to tack back and forth which is wasteful, (think about it sailing at say 4mph into the wind 50 degrees off the wind, your forward progress is only around 2mph (VMG, ...velocity made good is the correct term). Plus there is no way to tack thru narrow channels or rivers. Also if the river is surrounded by trees the wind is blocked most of the time. This circumstance accounts for around 70% of my time.
I am no athlete by any stretch of anyones imagination, and have zero desire to over expend my own physical abilities just to do something, there really is no point, ( this is why we have brains, lol)), I got nothin to prove to anyone, I couldn't care less what anyone is using their boat for, my only goal is to design the boat I want specifically for my own purposes, revolving around just my own limited physical abilities, and no one elses, (lol everyone else can and will do as they please).
My goal has not changed, (been workin on it for 7 yrs now). I want a human powered craft that averages 12mph vmg cruise speed regardless of actual natural wind speed and direction, (specifically because you can't predict the wind). I specifically want to be able to travel 300 miles non stop in under 24 hrs, in any conditions encountered. The reason for the 24hrs is because I'm an insulin dependent diabetic, and that's the longest I can go without insulin. Also because of my disability, I can't sleep on the ground ( like in a tent).
With my gas hybrid engines I need a least 100mpg, (ie... 3 gallons of fuel on board to be able to go 300 miles non stop), original goal was 150 mpg, but I want to use off the shelf engines vs inventing a new type engine.

Eventually the supplimental propulsion will be converted to solar/battery/electric, and fuel cell, but that tech is not yet readily available.
Or if we are traversing the 1200 mile or so Mississippi ( on my bucket list) I need to cover a minimum of 100 to 125 miles per day under human power. But all has to be within my own physical ability (no one else's, everyone else can do as they please).
At the same time the boat cannot be delicate, it needs to be able to operate equally well in high seas and less than ideal conditions, and utilize efficiently any wind I happen on to be able to amplify my speed beyond the stated minimums, in otherwords in favorable winds I would like to cruise 15-20 mph and still be able to operate the boat safely in up to around 25mph winds and 3-4ft seas (open ocean). If conditions change to small craft advisory, I also need the ability to get off the water and safely to shore at as high a speed as possible. I have no intent to ever operate the boat in small craft advisory, my intent is to make for shore and safety, I'm not crazy, I don't want to die (lol).

My chosen platform is the Hobie Tandem Island for several reasons. First off is the dual mirage drive system is designed from the ground up, in so my wife and I can both pedal. Secondly the length to width ratio of the sleek hull is at least 8 to 1. Only slight mods are required to make the hull a planing type hull ( kind of neccessary for efficiency above 8 mph). Thirdly because my boat has additional sail area (up to 260 sq ft) a little more AMA flotation is desired when in sailing mode, but more importantly in pedal mode now the AMA's are completely out of the water they don't create any drag at all, (they hover just over the water, and sometimes the rear 1/3 of the AMA planes on the water when operating at cruise speed ( currently 8-10mph) with side load on the wings and sails without creating additional drag on the boat, (kinda important to me anyway). Since we are in the seat peddling, it's kinda hard to hike out so the AMA's are setup higher in the air and a wider footprint from normal to increase efficiency, no other reason. Obviously we don't want our AMA's to ever touch the water at all, but if they have to, might as well make them as efficient as possibe, (planing on top of the water, not dragging thru the water). Widening the boat and raising the AMA's accomplishes all that. Hobies AMA design itself is masterful.
Then the main reason, I happen to like the boat and "it's the only boat we own", so when not working on my stupid goals crap, we just use the darn thing as our only family boat, plus being kayakers we use the kayak part, probably half the time. And since we sold our searay, we need the boat for diving and snorkling , (which is our favorite pastime), and we happen to live in SWFL and the keys so we can do all this stuff year round, also we travel alot, we have about 250k miles with our Hobies on the roof and camper in tow.

Please don't read in any other purposes for my AMA extensions beyond what goals I outlined above, specifically and only for my stated purpose, (above) is the only reason the mod was made. I did the mod quite a while back and just mentioned it in passing, and that it ended up working way better than even I imagined, (who knew , (lol)).

Obviously the whole concept revolves around my wing designs, I'm still a couple design generations away from my stated goal (12-14mph cruise under human power with a minimum supplimental propulsion @150 mpg, regardless of wind conditions, ( basically 300 mile non stop range in under 24 hrs)).
The platform I've been running for 3 yrs now is pretty maxxed out at 8-10 mph cruise, at 60-80 mpg, fun as heck but no cigar, I still have a ton of fundimental wing design work to do. Will I ever achieve my stated goal, of course not.... but it sure is a lot of fun tryin, and practicing (lol, keeps me in shape). Plus we get to use a really cool and fun boat for everything else we can dream up, (lol, since it's the only boat we got).
FE

Sorry for the long response, sometimes things can't be explained easily, sorry if I offended anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:03 am 
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Location: Colorado
Wing sails were brought up.. maybe the evolution of extended akas so sort of on topic.

FE, I saw your reference to Tom Speer. Also look at what John Eisenlohr did (youtube videos and there used to be a Yahoo group but it may be gone now). Tom Speer used to follow the ice and land sailing forums and had conributed to what John was doing. John made his own wind tunnel including some method to measure lift and drag forces and tried a bunch of foil shapes for a slotted flap design. He had published the results for the different shapes but I have no idea where to find them. I land sailed with him a few times at Ivanpah and Alvord dry lake beds and he did indeed have a fast land sailer especially for the amount of sail area.

A critical thing about that type of sail is that it needs to be fairly rigid. If its not rigid, the high and low pressures generated just cause distortions to the shape - which of course relieves the pressures and you dont get the intended lift to drag. Many years ago a windsurfing sail manufacture (Sailworks) had even experimented with a pressurized luft to try and get the benefits of a wing mast and they abandoned the idea because according to them too high of air pressure would be needed.

I think if you figure out some way to make a foil shape that is rigid enough to hold its shape under a lot of pressure, you could (after a lot of prototypes and experimenting) make a sail that made a difference. However, if you are just using someting like a tape measure for shape.. well.. it will make for good talking on the web as long as you dont have any real test data but it just wont perform.

I think Tom Speer was involved in some of the designs on the big foiling cats. Those probably still have a carbon fiber leading edge on the sails to keep them from deforming when they generate the high pressures they are capable. of. The trick of course is to make a rigid leading edge that is very light. While the slotted flap foils that John Eisenlohr worked well out on the dry lake bed where weight wasnt that important, the sails were very heavy, probably well over 100 pounds and this was for something just over 5 meter square area.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:20 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:12 am
Posts: 20
Location: Foley, AL and Enterprise, AL
I went sailing yesterday on a beautiful day with 15 mph winds. I chose to sail in very protected waters near Orange Beach, AL. ( Cotton Bayou and Old River, south of Ono Island ). Waves where never over 1 foot but the wind would gust too maybe 18 to 20. This was the most enjoyable trip I have made in my TI. What a great little boat! The boat performed beautifully, I frequently saw 8 mph on my gps with just the standard main sail up. The Omas never went under an I felt in complete control at all times. I was sailing solo from the rear with my Honda off and tilted up. Thanks Hobie for making a super little boat. I have been holding out to see if Hobie will make a jib for the TI but I will probably whined up getting their spinnaker. I now feel confident enough to handle a little more power. I am very pleased with my modification.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
And so you should be Bill! It is a skillfully done and well documented mod. 8)
The negativity in my original post was directed at the need for such a mod and not the mod itself. When FE Bob first posted these extensions it didn’t raise an eyebrow because his other mods are so ‘out there’ ( massive sail sets, planing hull add on, twin motors etc) that this seemed logical.
I still question the need for the extensions on a standard boat, but Keith is right when he says we all sail in different waters, so I’m glad you’re out enjoying the sailing in these most versatile of boats.
BTW- I can recommend the Hobie Spinnaker. It ‘completes’ the boat by greatly improving the down wind sailing, which is not so great with the standard boom-less sail.


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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
CobraIP:
Yea I was also amazed at the difference it made on my boat, funny I designed it for one purpose, to get my AMA's out of the water so they wouldn't drag (a half buried AMA creates a lot of drag). The mod ended up doing much more , (who knew).
However Matt is correct about when adding more power capability someplace, it can create problems in other areas.
The key areas to watch, and may need modification are:


1: The V framework supporting the mast inside the hull is pretty strong, and can handle the side to side forces ok (from the mast and sail), within the limits of the mast itself anyway. However the front to back forces need to be addressed when adding more sails. In particular is the little 1/4-20 stud sticking up in the bottom of the hull on top of the plastic molded in pyramid molded into the hull. Basically it isn't strong enough, (probably fine with just the stock mainsail), to remedy that on my boat I dropped a piece of aluminum between the back of the mast holder and the front of the mirage drive opening, then built a dam around that area and filled that area with epoxy. The whole works can be easily removed if you ever sell the boat. Otherwise you will be snapping those studs off all the time when pushing the boat with massive sail sets. Even with that re-enforcement you probably should have a rear stay line when adding big sails.


2: The entire front of the TI is not very strong, the front hatch opening weakens the boat quite a bit. When stock It's not an issue, but if adding big sailsets (jibs, spins, wings, etc) it becomes a problem. On my TI I added an outside aluminum structure that also supports the bowsprit assembly, (making the entire bow strong enough).


3: The AKA bars and the attachment system is not strong enough, (plenty strong for a stock boat, but when adding sails and pushing over the design limits, this creates an issue). On my TI I have a trusswork of lines that re-enforce the AKA's from front to back, (and at selective times up and down), basically eliminating the need for the AKA brace which is badly located. The problem with tubing is it very easily elbows under load. To test what I'm describing just take two 3ft pcs of thin wall aluminum tubing (same length), drill a hole in your work bench, then stick one end of the aluminum tubing in the hole. Now with a fish scale pull on the top of the tubing until the pipe elbows, (note how many lbs of force it took). Now on the second pipe plug one end with hot glue, (or anything handy), then pour fine white paver sand into the pipe until it's full, then plug off that end of the pipe. Now duplicate your first test, I think you will find much more force can be applied, and the aluminum tube will bend and flex much more before breaking/elbowing, actually it may not elbow at all, just bend once you exceed the flex of the material itself. Don't take my word for it, try it yourself, ( you can buy the aluminum tubing at Lowes in 3 ft pcs).
Filling the tubes with paver sand or 4lb two part urethane foam strengthens them quite a bit, adding in a fiberglass pultrusion into center for the length of the straight section, then filling with sand or foam makes the thing even stronger yet, (probably overkill). The foam won't work as well as the paver sand, but the foam weighs next to nothing, (you would need to weigh your options, then decide which to use).

4: The mast itself though plenty strong for just the mainsail, isn't really strong enough to support too much additional sail area, ( ie... jibs, genoas, and large code zero screechers). The problem being the un-stayed mast is very bendy. I had to add a rear stay line to mine to prevent snapping masts. With excessive side loads ( like from a big jib or genoa), side stays (with bungys) probably also need to be added.

5: the mast is mounted too far forward on the boat, and there is insufficient flotation in the bow. The problem here is downwind with a big spinnaker (bigger than Hobies), the forward force of the sails on downwind makes the bow dive underwater, (I call it nautilus mode), it doesn't come back up until you release the sails, (Lol I'm not ever gonna do that, (ie... release the sails and back off on a good downwind run)). The remedy for that problem is add a bowsprit so all the foresails are tilted, and also create lift. Also adding the bowsprit allows for room for more air to the foresails, it's crowded up there and the foresails starve for air without the bowsprit. Riding in the back solo, may help as well, though I always solo in the front.


6: The bungys that hold the AMA's on are iffy, it's pretty darn easy to rip the AMA's off in rough seas, I have spectra string on mine preventing them from dropping more than a inch.

7: no matter how you cut it, the rudder pin and assembly is not strong enough, just sideways water pressure from the water ( say from a wave or boat wake) is enough to snap the rudder pin in rough seas, basically if the rudder pin breaks you are totally screwed. Or say you do get a spinnaker kit and are barrelling on a downwind run, lets say at 15mph plus mph, (best run of your life), and you have to swerve to miss another boat coming at you, well I hate to say it but if you crank on the rudder hard at that speed, it just snaps off and flies into the air, (rudder pin). The boat is near impossible to sail with a paddle, and it's way too dangerous to try and change the rudder pin out in open ocean and rough seas. It's best to have a backup plan, ( in our case it's the steerable outboards).

8: The Rudder gudgeon mounted on the back of the boat (holds the rudder assembly) is injection molded, the bottom surface that goes against the boat is flat, but the back of the boat is rounded so it sits against the hull like a tider tater (have no clue how to spell this play ground toy). The two bolts holding it to the hull tend to fatigue out over time, It's best to contour the back edge of the gudgeon, or do like I did and just gob a bunch of silicone into the back of the gudgeon so it fits the contour of the hull, (so it can't rock).

99% of the guys prefer the boat as it comes from the factory and never plan to push things or add sails. So these pointers don't really apply unless you want to massively soup up and harden the boat for offshore use.
Hope this helps
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:46 am
Posts: 249
Location: Sweden, sjöbo
Thanks for the pointers FE!
I am working on strengthening my TI as far as possible. Happy for the info.
Sadly I cant see the pics in most of your post in your "Ultimate TI" thread. You made some amazing mods!
:)

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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Yea that's a sore spot, they closed my account and all those pics are gone forever, and I have no means to replace them,
Sucks

If I was organized like Keith it would be way better, he even indexes his stuff for us all to reference later.

FE


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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:46 am
Posts: 249
Location: Sweden, sjöbo
fusioneng wrote:
Yea that's a sore spot, they closed my account and all those pics are gone forever, and I have no means to replace them,
Sucks

If I was organized like Keith it would be way better, he even indexes his stuff for us all to reference later.

FE


Yeah, really to bad! :(
I back up my build blogs as I post in case of any unforseen internet issues.
Would be interesting to see a walkaround of your rig.

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 Post subject: Re: Aka extensions.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:44 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:12 am
Posts: 20
Location: Foley, AL and Enterprise, AL
I have taken my TI out once more in great sailing conditions ( for me ) winds where around 12 to 16 mph the boat performed great in well protected waters. My GPS showed a top speed of 12.66 mph but that must have a brief reading. I never saw anything more than 8 mph. I bite the bullet and ordered a Hobie Spinnaker which I should have installed in a couple of weeks. I will give a follow up report when I get the boat out in good condition.


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