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 Post subject: Top sailing wind speed?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:45 pm 
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I bought my first TI this summer, also my first time sailing anything, and have been having a blast. My question is, what are the highest wind speeds that would be suggested to sail a TI in?

I live in an area that gets a fair amount of wind days and a couple times the wind speeds were around (guessing) 40 - 50km/h and I got fairly concerned I was going to capsize. I furled the sail and had a hard time making head way against the wind pedaling back to the dock.
Thanks


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:02 am 
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I see you're new here. Welcome! You're going to have a great time reading many past posts to learn almost everything you need to know about this subject, but I'll summarize a few key things to get you started.

There are many discussions here about maximum safe wind speed for the TI. Much depends upon your skill level and risk tolerance. There are people here who say they are comfortable going out in wind speeds up to 25-30+ MPH (40-48+ KPH), but they usually have a lot of experience and skill, not to mention daring. However, the maximum I would ever recommend to a first time TI owner is 15-20 MPH (24-32 KPH), at least until you gain more experience, and even that can be a bit risky if you're not careful. Not so much concerning a capsize below 20 MPH, but you may find you can't get to your destination in time, if at all, if the wind changes directions and you find you need to sail upwind. The TI is not the best upwind sailboat and even the pedals won't help you much when headwinds and currents are strong and you need to go long distances, unless you're very athletic and have great endurance. So please use caution there until you get to know the TI better.

Sail furling knowledge and proper techniques are critical for sailing the TI in high winds (i.e. over 20 MPH/32 KPH), otherwise there is a possibility of capsize. The TI is very stable and resistant to capsize because of its amas, but any sailcraft can capsize given the right conditions. I almost capsized in a TI in a bad storm. You will be challenged sailing the TI in winds over 20MPH, you'll need to know well the proper sailing techniques and the limitations of the boat to do this successfully and safely. Then there is an issue with the aka shear bolts which can cause an immediate capsize in rough conditions. Fortunately there are instructions here to install keep out lines which resolve this problem. Be sure to ask or read up on that before going out in high winds.

Additionally, many TI owners decide to enhance the versatility and safety of the TI with a motor. Adding a motor can get you back home safely if the winds exceed safe sailing conditions or if you find you need to head upwind in strong winds and currents. You can simply furl the sail completely and use the motor for propulsion. Furling the sail completely greatly reduces the possibility of a capsize to near zero. With a motor as a safety backup you can sail out in the TI with confidence on days with moderate to high winds, knowing that if the winds become too much to handle, you have a reliable source of propulsion to get you back safely. The motor also comes in very handy if the winds die down completely and you need to travel distances longer than you feel like pedaling.

I personally feel the ideal wind speed to sail a TI is around 8-15 MPH (13-24 KPH). Anything lower can get a bit boring and anything higher can get too exhilarating at times, at least for my tastes, but you'll eventually decide for yourself what you like best and what you feel is safe for your skill level and risk tolerance.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Started sailing when I was young. Raced keelboats for years and 1.5 seasons dinghy racing.

In that instance I believe you should be sailing to the dock (if there is space) instead of solely relying on pedalling.
Learn to sail and you can sail in that no problem. That's one of the reasons I wanted a TI (or AI) because it is one of the few vessels you can sail in 20 knots or more (btw, sailors talk in knots instead of kph or mph) because one, it's stable (far less chance of capsizing/pitchpoling) and two, most importantly, it can reef (uncommon for dinghies). I would suggest you pick up a sailing dinghies type book. A general learn to sail book is also good, however it may not delve enough into important things ti small vessels such as boat trim (where you position yourself (weight) according to wind direction. It's not quite as important on a keelboat, especially large size).

Where are you sailing?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:53 pm 
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Thanks for the replies pro10is and sailorv.

I've tried to read everything I can about sailing the TI and have had great fun this past season. Your answers are more or less what I expected, I guess I just wanted some one with some experience to say it.

I live and sail in windy Southern Alberta Canada


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:15 pm 
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I had to get my wife to meet me at a different boat ramp when I couldn't get back into the wind - blowing up to about 20kn in gusts. I was motoring with a 24lb Watersnake, pedalling and half reefed sail to make upwind progress. Not much fun!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:33 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
RodZone:
Yea that's one of my big pet pieves about the Island type boats, (if used offshore). I can't tell you how many times the exact same thing has happened to me. That's why I always say make sure you fully understand the boats real sailing capabilities, (not imagined) before trying to take them offshore. We added an emergency outboard to ours specifically to get us back to shore if things go bad, (which in reality happens often), especially in swfl and the keys sudden unforcast storms form right over your head with no notice at times ( mostly in the summer), then add in broken rudders, broken rudder gudgeons, snapped rudder lines, broken masts, AMA's falling off, AKA sheer pins breaking, with the most common, ( drum roll please) having to come back with a hull full of water and the stern completely underwater.

Our outboard sitting back at the stern when tilted up doesn't effect sailing performance at all, (that extra 27 lbs means nothing in the scheme of things, it actually helps us get a little more weight in the rear, which helps prevent pitchpole ), many times we don't bother even starting it, but it's always there as a backup when things do go bad, lol we call it getting out of dodge, when we had to fire up the outboard and beeline for shore and safety.
More than a few times before getting the outboard we have done the Gilligan Isle thing (a planned 3 hr tour), ended up coming back in totally exhausted from peddling well after dark, sometimes nowhere near our car, (no idea where we were (lol, especially around Key Largo, every resort looks the same after dark, pretty embarrassing), and watch out for those crazy channel markers at night.
It's probably good planning to know where alternate launch/ retrieve locations are beforehand, (everything looks the same from offshore, especially after dark). Lol actually we were once in dire peril off key west (sudden storm) and barely made it to a small beach surrounded by giant boulders 75 feet on each side on the southern most tip of Key West Island, (35mph winds and 4-5 ft breakers rolling over us). If we had missed that beach the next stop would have been Cuba. Unfortunately it was on a naval base, lets just say they weren't very friendly, we sat out the rest of the storm with armed guards, once it cleared up we were on our way quickly, you never know what's going to happen out there. Needless to say it scared the heck out of us.

I want to relay a true story about a guy who read about our adventures in the keys on this forum, then came down to the keys on vacation with his TI and tried to do some of the stuff I talked about on this forum , ( snorkeling, diving, etc), with him not realizing I live here with many years of local knowledge, and my boat has been specifically hardened and rigged for the area. Needless to say he got in real trouble, and I felt very bad about it afterwards.

FE


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:08 pm 
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FE, you are being unfairly harsh about "Island type boats". Name one single off-the-beach sailboat more capable of handling stronger winds....

The problem is NOT the capacity of the Islands, but the willingness of the sailor to push the increased safety limits available from having a reefable sail.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:23 am 
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Location: Chalfont Pa
This post seems to have taken a turn, but still very interesting and useful for all. My TI is stock, and my second one. Couple reference points.
My old AI would bury in gusts around the high teens, this boat should be kept in lakes IMHO.

The first boat, a '14 had a distinct tendency to submarine in puffs if not reefed. I could bury the main hull up to the mast underwater. That always got my attention and I would either reef or ease up. Only happened a couple times, ceased being fun quickly.

My '16 TI with the much better hull shape shows no such tendency. I have had it out in gusts up to 30 and it showed no sign of diving. The rudder overloads and stalls, but that is not a big deal.
This is not in ocean conditions, just a big local lake and bay. I learned a long time ago not to go out if the forecast shows conditions bad and/or worsening.

We plan to do some sailing on the Florida west coast this year, I plan to add GPS and teach my wife how to use it. We have always used dead reckoning, picking landmarks on the shore and familiarity with the coastline.

I have no interest in putting a gas motor on the boat, lighter is better IMHO.
I inspect shear bolts monthly and replace them annually.
I have not tried replacing a broken pin on the water, but will next summer.

FE, it is a shame you are not into the boat anymore, your experiences and modifications made this forum better. Always wanted to meet you and your boat. Your travels are inspiring, we are currently planning to pull a trailer and carry the TI on the pickup. I am building a ladder rack with a ladder modified to make loading easier.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:17 pm 
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quattroguy wrote:
FE, it is a shame you are not into the boat anymore, your experiences and modifications made this forum better. Always wanted to meet you and your boat. Your travels are inspiring, we are currently planning to pull a trailer and carry the TI on the pickup.


Spot on. Florida has lost a tourist attraction.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:02 am 
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Yea I guess it came across a little harsh, (oops).
I'm with Keith kinda wishing Hobie would come out with a liitle more hardened version of the TI for the excursion and offshore people.
I'm not asking for the world here, just a slightly stronger design. With maybe foam filled AKA bars, built in safety lines, that overcome the very weak aka bar brace design, a slightly stronger rudder system, and an aluminum plate, (or some type of spacer) mounted behind the base of the mast holder to re-enforce that 1/4" stud in the hull bottom. Maybe a slightly improved front hatch, or at the very least supply a Hobie approved optional shower cap or insert to help with the front hatch leakage issues. Verses all of us needing to come up with all these fixes on our own.

Tony is correct, there is no chance I would trust my old sunfish, or a laser in some of the conditions I have been out in. It's not the mast or furlable mainsail that concerns me. Those are actually pretty impressive, and I will never own another boat without mirage drives. It's the other 5 or 6 little things that can go horribly wrong on these boats in rough conditions that concern me very much, (ie... Keiths Insta-capsize, broken rudder pins and gudgeions, etc, to name just a few) that most of us are aware of and talk about often, and expert sailers will catch and remedy (as most of us have). I just worry about the people who get these boats after watching all the crazy videos out there, (yea I'm also guilty as charged), and get themselves into real trouble out there not being aware of the weakness's because they don't follow the forum.
I just strongly feel Hobie should at least offer a premium version of this amazing craft with all the little design fixes incorporated into what they could call the "EC special edition" for of course a premium price, doll it all up with decals and such, I would buy one in a heartbeat, (sort of like the Americas cup line of Waves, way cool).
Some of the extra's from that line could be offered in their catalog as add-ons, with proven out and tested standardized fixes to all the obvious design issues that everyone may not be aware of, and nearly all have tried to remedy on their own with sometimes not so well thought out results, (ie... stainless rudder pins, and replacing the nylon sheer bolts with steel bolts to name a few).
I'm not talking about a complete redesign here, all the existing designs are fine, (ie...the basic hull, AMA's, sail system, etc).
Now Hobie has the fixed mast topper design (the key to everything in my opinion), as people gain experience they can purchase specialty add-ons to suite their needs, like an aluminum brace system and maybe a bowsprit along with a Hobie designed jib kit, (to be purchased as a package), spinnaker kit, etc. So as users become expert sailers they can configure their boats into really capable machines without needing to design and build all their own stuff from scratch, ( I got kind of tired of having to design all my own fixes).
I strongly feel (for example only), a modified Island type boat configured similar to what I've been running now for 6-7 yrs is superior to even a Windrider 17, with the biggest key feature for me anyway is, It's a complex very capable sailboat that is car toppable, (and I have over 200k road miles on mine to prove it), and there is nothing on the market that comes even remotely close. Nobody, I mean nobody is going to put a 450lb Windrider on their roof ( just sayin). And near 50% of the time we leave all the sails and rigging back at our campsite, and use the boat as the best and fastest kayak we have ever owned, (hobie doesn't even promote that aspect), and we have owned a lot of different Hobies over the years. They will need to pry my mirage drives from my dead feet ( lol).
I guess I'm just frustrated that Hobie invented this amazing craft but only brought it to 80% of it's capability in fear of infringing on the sales of it's cat line, ( obviously just my own opinions). I feel they invented a whole new category of craft here, but keep it handicapped, (for recreational beginners only)...
Obviously I'm outspoken here because I love the craft and the concept so much, and of course all my opinions are strictly my own.
FE
Edit: yes I sold my 2012 TI, and need to lay off a while (health reasons, mostly my broken back problem, needs time to heal). And we don't sail much in the winter anyway, (sure I'm canadian, but anymore the water's too cold for me in the winter ( downside to living in Florida over time I guess). You can bet your bottom dollar I kept all my gadgets that take me about a day to install on any new TI I buy (would be our forth TI). However I'm hoping to be able to toss all that old crap, (most of it is over 7 yrs old now and looks like it all survived WW2).
I'm holding out for a EC super TI special edition ( similar to what they did with the America's cup wave's, ( but real)), heck I might even offer to sail it in front of Mallory square weekly if asked, (Key West is the only cruise destination port in the US with on some days 2-3 cruise ships coming in, (my wife had a store there, right near the cruise ship docks for years). It would be the star and main attraction at any boat show on the planet, if they do it right. Would be a pretty awesome add campaign, showing highlights of 20 if these things dominating something like the EC, just sayin.

( note the water right there in the cruise ship channel is a nightmare, I don't recommend taking a stock TI there, just sayin).
Oh well, I'm a dreamer, can't help myself, (lol)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Rodzone:
We're you sitting in the seat pedal sailing the whole time to get home? Or hiking out after pedal assisted tacks or gybes (or all sailing no pedals)?
I was in 25kt gusts in a narrow body of water with current against me this summer and I was able to sail to my upwind destination, maybe half furled and quickly getting to the tramps and using my body for proper boat trim to get the most speed and headway.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:49 pm 
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Sitting in the rear seat, controlling the sheet, pedalling and steering. Wasn't game to go out on the tramp as I was tacking out a few hundred metres then tacking back into the lee of an island (a real one, not a Hobie). I was making progress but a course up a strait with blustery wind bullets head on was going to be bad - hence pulling in to a different ramp.

I have learnt a lot more about apparent wind and improved my sailing strategies and speed since.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:16 am 
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One capabilty I discovered with my original TI ,(aka,,, before making any mods to the boat (which obviously changed all the characteristics of the boat)).
When trying to sail upwind in heavier winds, (we sail upwind 80% of the time around here because of geography), I found that pointing directly into the wind, opening the sail full and pulling it very tight. I then start peddling, (sometimes like crazy initially to get going), then turn off the wind till the sail catches, ( around 20 degrees off the wind), I then pedal at a steady light pace, (around 40 cpm (cycles per minute, I can maintain that exertion level for around 10 hrs off and on)).
I can make pretty good headway (3-4mph, faster with two peddlers)) almost straight upwind, no need to tack hardly at all. This stance is artificial and un-natural, and only made possible by the mirage drives, (obviously no other boat type can do this).
However if you stop peddling the boat typically rounds into the wind and stalls, and you have to be very cautious if your forward motion stops and the rudder stops functioning (rudder has to have water rushing past it to operate, dah). If you lose control and the boat goes sideways to the wind showing full sail pulled tight, the boat of course capsizes,( I keep my hand on the sail control lines, just in case).
Sure it's not nearly as fun as sailing like a madman tacking back and forth very fast 50-60 degrees off the wind, (actually not tacking is very boring). But if you actually measure the VMG, (velocity made good) of the boat (I use an app that calculates vmg), when tacking against fairly strong winds, and against the ever present current, my vmg often times would be 1-2mph, and at many times negative, ( in otherwords I was sailing like crazy and being blown out to sea and didn't even know it).
I'm pretty sure most are unaware of this totally unique capability that no other sail boat in the world can do, and is not something any traditional sailer with standard sailing experience would ever think to attempt.
Obviously this goes aganst all prevailing sailing logic, and can be very dangerous without strict rudder control, ( in other words no day dreaming at the wheel, or not paying attention will capsize the boat).
I'm not suggesting anyone even try this technique, I'm just sayin if you are totally unaware of this unique capability you would never think to even try it.
Note: The discovery of this very unique feature of these very special boats 7 yrs ago was the basis for all my modifications over the last 7 yrs. I discovered via very hard knocks that the upwind capability of any sail boat needs to balance with the downwind capabilities. In our case we were trying to chase down the Marquisa, ( the biggest sailing cat in the keys) offshore in brisk offshore winds with all of our 260 sq ft of sail out, just to say hi, (my wife knew the crew well). We caught her around 5 miles out (near sand key), 15-20 minutes of extreme fun, (yea we were tipping near 20mph), turned into a ten hr totally exhausting horror show for us trying to get back to Key West,we didn't get back in till after midnight.
Just sayin be careful with those spinnakers guys....they can get you somewhere quickly that you can't get back from without massive mods to the boat.
Thus the specific reason for all my mods, (to make my upwind capability exceed my downwind capability), which I did.
FE
Edit: after re-reading this, it dawned on me that when solo it's highly unlikely this technique would work from the rear seat, because of balance and weight issues, just sayin, I suspect it only works for front seaters, (ie... guys who solo from the front seat), though I have not tried it from the rear seat solo, I suspect it won't work.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:44 pm 
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I'm sorry, but I have to question your claim about the unique ability to improve VMG by pedaling. If it were true, the sailing books would be full of it, as there is no different law of physics applicable to the Island. More explanation required please :)

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker and Hangkai outboard
only cool people follow the (non-magnetic) titanium weight-loss program! lol.)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:42 pm 
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Most of the propulsion is from the mirage drive, the full sail area provides only a little propulsion, but not enough to propel the boat, in 12-14 mph winds your only moving 4-5mph when in this configuration, this is not acceptable to most. That would be a vmg of about 3-4 mph pinched way higher than is normally possible on these boats (I think it's called close hauled).
I admit I totally suck as a sailer, with my stock TI (no jib) in 12-14mph winds I'm lucky to get 45-50 degrees off the wind and still make headway in the direction I want to go upwind.
I'm sure much better sailers than me can do much better.
Don't take my word for it, try it next time your out, when your feeling better.
Basically point directly into the wind, open the sail all the way and pull it tight so it can't luff. Then start peddling like mad to get some forward motion going, once your moving you have rudder control again, then turn slightly off the wind until the sail catches and starts working, which for me is between 20 and 25 degrees off the wind. Once the sail catches you can release it out a little if needed. You have to maintain tight rudder control because the boat constantly wants to round into the wind and stall, an un-natural configuration. Once you get going you can back off on the peddling down to a maintainable pace. The more you turn off the wind the faster the boat goes, however showing that much sail in high winds gets tricky very fast, especially with twitchy winds. As soon as you stop peddling the boat rounds up into the wind and stalls out. That's the part that's unique about these boats, (the ability to use both propulsion sources at the same time).
There is no way I could sail my old sunfish that close to the wind in higher winds, and still go forwards.
The big cruisers do that all the time around here anyway, sailing really close hauled with their motors running, (ie... powersailing).
Lol that's what I do to pass the time when I'm out, I run down all those big 40-60 ft cruisers running up and down the intercoastal with their huge genoa sails out and listen for their motors running, yep most are running their engine with all their sails up sailing very close hauled, (more because there is no room to tack than anything else I'm guessing).
Keep in mind the intercoastal waterway here runs north and south and is pretty narrow with very narrow channels, (too shallow to navigate outside the channels in most areas, especially with a deep keel. Eighty percent of the time thru the summer the wind is from the south, so the cruisers are either going upwind or downwind. Lol all that water and you can only use 5% of it with a large boat in the intercoastal.
I'm doin no different from those guys with my pedal drive, (powersailing).
So maybe the capability isn't so unique.
I was just sharing my own observations from a long time ago, which I thought to be unique to these boats at the time. And are the basis for all my mods, (ie.. my jibs, wing sails, hybrid propulsion, etc,etc), my final result was being able to cruise 8-10mph 10-15 degrees off the wind all day everyday, ( in very low winds, faster in higher winds of course, ( up to a point obviously)). At least I thought it was very cool, and I thought not readily apparent.
FE


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