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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Location: Hornsby, NSW, Australia
jay2018 wrote:
One question-- would it be any less effective if the wheels didn't hold the kayak as far off the ground? Like the back wheels look like they could be a foot shorter-- but the rudder wouldn't clear then, but you would just have to pop it up.


The main motivation for the rear wheel height was to be able to pivot the nose up to the roof of the car without the tail hitting the ground.

They are also angled forward to reduce the proportion of the kayak weight being lifted up to the car roof (the closer the wheels are to the middle the lighter the front).
This also makes them stable in the down position both in the water where the wheels are buoyant and on land with the weight of the boat on them.

Would be better with larger wheels for the sand but everything is a compromise and finding parts and materials that are salt water tolerant for reasonable cost was difficult (esp in Australia).
This is particularly true for the front caster wheel (had to make my own crude design). Wheels with bearings would have been good too to reduce the towing effort.

Quote:
I might do a different front design, cause I'm sure I will want to run a spinnaker.


I agree I would have liked to have not had anything swinging across the front deck.
Preferably I would have created separate wheels like on the back where the luggage deck needed to be kept free.
However strength and stability of the support and my crude caster wheel design made this too difficult for my design/fabrication skills.
I would probably use some sort of quick release bow attachment if I ever install a jib or spinnaker. (ie. Swing wheel up then attach sail stay and reverse when lowering the wheel)
Have not been inclined to redesign anything now that it works though. Cuts too much into sailing time.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:45 pm 
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jay2018 wrote:
Been looking at the rotomolded Hobie cats. I think trimarans May be more my style, I don’t like the boat heeled over like that, but their hills are a lot shorter and thus would be easier to fit in a box truck. The masts are longer though and I’ve heard from a friend who has some older Hobie cats in his club that they take awhile to rig.


Only you know what is more your "style," and comparing the plastic cats to each other is an "apples to oranges" affair by themselves. Throwing the Islands into the mix is a much different game altogether. Since you mentioned sailboats and plastic cats, I'll offer these points for comparison:
If you want to fish or kayak, then there's only the Islands. Great versatility. You won't be pedaling or easily adapting alternative propulsion with the cats.
Getaway: Too big and time consuming to rig, to consider without a trailer.
Wave: If there's anything in you that thinks it's a viable option, then explore it. A wave classic breaks down to pieces (including mast) no longer than 12', each pontoon is about 80-100 lbs, roughly 12'x1'x18", can easily be hauled by one person with beach wheels, can be rigged from pieces in <30min, and performs better than the Island series in every aspect of sailing. A furling jib can be added, or even a spinnaker. Completely broken down takes up surprisingly little room, and set up has surprisingly ample room and is incredibly stable even solo in high winds. Watch video of assembling wave compared to a Tandem Island. There may be 10-15 min difference.
Bravo: Same length as a wave but not as wide or stable or fast, or as much room. One piece hull would be bulky to work with your configuration and while I'm sure there's someone out there cartopping one somehow, it's a slipped disc waiting to happen.
Only reason I've stressed this is because you mentioned sailboats. Twice. And while the spinnaker kit helps to improve downwind performance of the island series, if you want to point high, and make any time, you will be pedaling. I love my adventure island, but as far as sailing is concerned, this is the one disappointing aspect of it. The Islands sail like kayaks. Fast off a reach, stable, kayaks. No shifting seats on tacks or jibes, fore or aft to distribute weight. No tiller or crossbar.

The bottom line is that Hobie Cats to a greater extent are sailboats, and Hobie Islands are sailing kayaks.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:15 am 
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paranoid wrote:
The main motivation for the rear wheel height was to be able to pivot the nose up to the roof of the car without the tail hitting the ground.

They are also angled forward to reduce the proportion of the kayak weight being lifted up to the car roof (the closer the wheels are to the middle the lighter the front).
This also makes them stable in the down position both in the water where the wheels are buoyant and on land with the weight of the boat on them.

Would be better with larger wheels for the sand but everything is a compromise and finding parts and materials that are salt water tolerant for reasonable cost was difficult (esp in Australia).
This is particularly true for the front caster wheel (had to make my own crude design). Wheels with bearings would have been good too to reduce the towing effort.


I totally understand. Thanks. Before building anything permanent, I'll have to run some experiments with my setup. But you have shown that it can be done, which is fantastic.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:21 am 
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Pescatoral Pursuit wrote:
Only you know what is more your "style," and comparing the plastic cats to each other is an "apples to oranges" affair by themselves. Throwing the Islands into the mix is a much different game altogether. Since you mentioned sailboats and plastic cats, I'll offer these points for comparison:

Wave: If there's anything in you that thinks it's a viable option, then explore it. A wave classic breaks down to pieces (including mast) no longer than 12', each pontoon is about 80-100 lbs, roughly 12'x1'x18", can easily be hauled by one person with beach wheels, can be rigged from pieces in <30min, and performs better than the Island series in every aspect of sailing.

Only reason I've stressed this is because you mentioned sailboats. Twice. And while the spinnaker kit helps to improve downwind performance of the island series, if you want to point high, and make any time, you will be pedaling. I love my adventure island, but as far as sailing is concerned, this is the one disappointing aspect of it. The Islands sail like kayaks. Fast off a reach, stable, kayaks. No shifting seats on tacks or jibes, fore or aft to distribute weight. No tiller or crossbar.

The bottom line is that Hobie Cats to a greater extent are sailboats, and Hobie Islands are sailing kayaks.


Thanks for your perspective--- this whole exercise (and my whole project, beyond just which boat I buy) is an exercise in tradeoffs. I watch youtube videos to get some perspective. I see the islands being used the way I like to sail-- not heeled over, and they seem to make ok speed in high winds. (though probably a lot less speed in low winds, in which case they are more like kayaks than sailboats). The cats seem to be a lot like lasers, really fun sailing close to the shore where you don't mind if you go in the water, and where hiking out and riding a single hull is part of the fun. That's not my style, I think. Watching them sail it feels like the main is overpowered for the boat beam-- but that's probably intentional for their intended use.

Also, for each of the rotomolded catamarans I watched rigging videos, both the hobie setup ones and casual people launching their boats on youtube. Alas, for the "real sailboats" the rigging time and the amount of breaking down that needs to be done is more than I would like. I'm hopeful to keep the boat fully rigged and just deploy, drop mast and go. The boats with stays seem to always involve more hassle than I have (and most of the hobie official setup videos have lines like "have your crew do this"--- I won't have a crew, or am not counting on one.

That said a fully broken down wave is a lot more convenient for me to transport, so it's not out of the running, its just not at the top of the list for the moment. I'm not making a quick decision here, and when it warms up a bit I'm going to try and get time on some of these boats.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:00 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
jay2018:
You sound a lot like me, (similar history). We are also rv'ers and many years are out on the road 6 months or so. Our home base is SW Florida and the keys, (we currently have houses in sarasota and key west), used to also have homes in chicago area and california, (too many homes and not enough time was my motto), we got rid of all those other houses and are now full time Florida residents. We have over 200k miles with Hobies on the roof and our camper in tow, (since moving to florida full time in 2007). I have talked to others about modifying motorhomes and toy haulers to facilitate being able to transport our TI easily. We even have looked at several motorhome/toy haulers scoping out what can be done. The ones of interest to us need to be self contained (with engine), We currently pull a camper trailer with a big ole truck (GME Sierra Denali), and I gotta tell you that blows.....
Since the camper is using the hitch we can't use or take along our TI trailer (which makes owning a TI very nice and easy, and when local in Florida we only use our TI trailer towed behind one of our vehicles). However when traveling we have to put the TI onto Thule Aero racks mounted over the truck bed. I'm old and not very fit (5'6 230 lbs) and don't have any real issues loading the TI up there all by myself, (done it a thousand times now, technique is everything). Getting the boat up and down isn't really the issue for me. The issue with me is in order to get the boat up there it has to be stripped down completely to just the hull, (our 2012 TI bare hull weighs around 100-110 lbs). However our boat is very complex with 3 masts (up to 260 sq ft of sail area), with twin outboards, an automatic anchor system, and is heavily hardened for offshore use and performance, Our main favorite pastime is snorkleing and scuba diving in the keys, (mostly off key west, where the water is very dangerous, (there are no coral reefs within 5 miles of shore, and most everything within a mile or two from shore is just shallow barren sand, (boring) pretty much anywhere in the keys), just sayin.
In other words it takes us over an hour to set the boat up once it's off the roof, that really bites. Typically we stay at any destination over a week and only take the boat down once, then leave the boat setup either on the beach or moored offshore, during our stay, and often go out several times a day. With the fully rigged boat our max daily range is around 100 miles.
When we are not traveling, the boat remains fully rigged on our trailer and lives in our garage (fully rigged). It takes all of five minutes to pull out and hook to the car, then drive to the water. It typically takes about 15 minutes once we pull up to the water to launch. When done we pull the boat out using a winch, drive home rinse the boat off in the drive then pull it in the garage, (takes about 5 minutes), nothing is ever removed from the boat, the AMA's a swung in and all the masts and sails are just laid down on the hull, I leave all the rigging attached, I just tilt the motors down for storage, and that's about it.
Bottom line trailering is your best option, car topping is the absolute worst especially if your boat is very complex like mine, (ie... it's the breakdown and setup time that kills you).
Another aspect especially when we are traveling, is when we are inland on small lakes and rivers we simply don't need all the extras that are mandatory offshore, as avid kayakers we love to explore rivers (following to their headwaters), we leave all the extras back at the campsite, and just use the kayak part of the TI. I have to tell you the Tandem Island kayak is the best and fastest kayak in Hobies fleet and will hold it's own against pretty much any kayak on the market. Near half our time when we are out and about is just kayaking. The beauty of these boats is their versatility to be used both ways, and many options in between to suit the conditions at the time. For example (true story), we used the boat to scuba dive 7 miles offshore at the coral reefs one day, then two days later we we quietly kayaking up the Sante Fe river (in north florida), then a week later we were running the Huron River rapids in Ann Arbor MI. Then two weeks later we made the run out to Macinac Island (stayed overnight at the Grand), However I'll never attempt that trip again, (too dangerous). All with the same boat.

I like your ideas about the Morgan truck, it's similar to what I was thinking about using a toy hauler, (we were looking for a toy hauler with a big enough back end, with a door in the center between the toy storage area and the living area, that the nose of our TI could be stuck thru during transport. This way for transport the complete boat fully rigged could be rolled into the back, with the nose sticking thru the doorway into the passenger area. This way you just roll the fully rigged boat in (on the boat trailer) close the door and your off. We had a modified Harbor Freight trailer (only cost a couple hundred bucks), the beauty of it was it was pretty light, and we could walk the boat and trailer pretty much anywhere, (because if the big wheels with bearings), heck in key west we even towed the boat down to higgs beach from our house which was on the corner of Us 1 and Duval (about ten blocks) pulled behind either my wives beach bike, or behind our buddy 150 scooter many times. We also did that at some campgrounds when we weren't camping right on the water.

A key tip to using your trailer as a launch cart.... What we do is slide the boat back on the trailer so the boat is balanced over the wheels, then strap it down with one strap, this way you can easily pick the front up and walk the boat around till the cows come home, (we even added a handle to ours up front), very easy to walk up hill, down hill, thru terrain, or whatever, then just slide the fully rigged boat off when at the water, easy peasy. The wheel bearings and big tires make the difference. Like I said earlier you can even tow it with your bicycle. Trust me... trying to haul around a fully rigged TI on a scupper cart bites. When you do your trailer, I'm strongly suggesting you use PVC bunks verses the Hobie cradles, (way nicer, and more versatile, better for the hull, and easier to load/unload, plus with the PVC bunks you can slide the boat back for balance, (you can't do that with the cradles))

Hopefully I'm giving you some ideas here, basically try to avoid having to break the boat down, if you can put it into the Morgan truck with the boat fully rigged on the trailer, it will make your life much easier, (in our case the boat on the trailer is no longer or wider than the boat itself with the AMA's folded in). Our garage at home is just a standard 2 stall garage, and the TI on the trailer fits in there just fine. In our experience trying to haul the fully rigged boat around on a scupper cart is just too hard, and the boat cannot be stored on a scupper cart, it's best stored on a trailer (basically lives on the trailer). Hope this doesn't change your plans too much, but I'm talking from experience here (we have had 3 TI's now). For many years until recently we used our TI every weekend averaging around 15 miles per week, with some weekends covering over a hundred miles, and have been in pretty much every body of water we have been able to find all across the country.
Our TI was our only family boat and we often had 4 or more people on board, (in safe areas of course). Sure beats having to endure the expense of our old 24 ft Sea Ray ($400/month for dry storage around here), or having to haul 3 or 4 Hobie kayaks (with kayak sails) down off the roof and having to set them all up by myself ( nobody ever volunteered to help, (ever, not even once)).
There is no boat on the market or on anyones drawing boards, that holds a candle to the TI (in my opinion), plus it's easily modified to do whatever you can dream up. Stock it's nothing to brag about, (not very fast, (especially in Florida where there is very little wind) and doesn't point well) but a few simple mods which you can do yourself, there is nothing out there that's car toppable that can match it. I compare mine (with it's modifications, (same sail area)) to a Windrider 17, however the Windrider 17 is 450 lbs, (and costs around $10k),,,, nobody is going to car top one of those, mine is faster and much more versatile, and can also be used as a unbelievable kayak (best there is IMO).
Hobie says there is no day you can't use an adventure boat, this is actually true.
Let the adventure begin

FE


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:00 am 
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I fear you're going to make this so complicated, so difficult, and such a hassle that you're going to end up really disliking the results.

I don't see why you simply don't just go with a trailer. That way you can get any boat you want and not have to come up with some Rube Goldberg contraption for your camper to attempt to load a boat onto the roof. Additionally, you won't have to worry about launching it.

Your rig could easily pull a trailer. These types of boats are so light that you'll hardly notice you're towing anything. I've seen campers towing cars, so a tiny lightweight boat/trailer would be nothing in comparison. Maneuverability would be slightly impacted but it's a small price to pay for the convenience it affords.

I too am thinking of traveling with a camper when I retire. If I do, my TI will come with me on my trailer.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:49 pm 
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One other point.. Whatever your plans are (car top or trailer), I would for sure make sure you have some provision to protect the plastic boat from UV if its going to be out on the road for some time. Plastic boats are not as durable UV wise as the old glass sailboat you used to own.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:25 pm 
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I currently own a Tandem Island and love it, but it doesn't sail as well (or fast) as any of the Hobie Cats. I've also owned a Hobie 16, Hobie 14, and recently sold my Hobie Wave.

The Wave is the 'most' bullet proof boat of Hobie Cats and TI's and AI's......and way more exciting to sail than a Tandem Island, but I can't imagine trying to car top it. While the two piece mast assembles quickly, assembling the hulls and cross bars takes some time.......and then you need to lace up the tramp (Club model) - tightly. This is somewhat of a time consuming process and not one you'd like to repeat over and over again in the blazing sun.

A trailer is the only way to go and keep your sanity. The Trailex people make a great trailer that's all aluminum, lightweight and virtually maintenance free. I've towed a Wave, loaded sail box, etc. with a Honda CRV and only long steep upgrades remind you your towing something. Leaving the mast assembled and towed on the top of the Wave using a mast crutch and rear cross bar support allows you to keep the side stays and forestay bridle attached. Stepping the mast, while more difficult than the Tandem Island isn't difficult. You'll develop your own little 'tricks' to make going from trailer to water easier and quicker.

For storage outside, leaving the assembled mast on the boat, a large tarp will give you sun protection for your hulls and tramp also.

I choose the Tandem Island for many reasons and I'm completely satisfied with my choice, altho there are times with 15-20 knots winds I miss the Wave.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:43 am 
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cooldudecaptain wrote:
The Wave is the 'most' bullet proof boat of Hobie Cats and TI's and AI's......and way more exciting to sail than a Tandem Island, but I can't imagine trying to car top it. While the two piece mast assembles quickly, assembling the hulls and cross bars takes some time.......and then you need to lace up the tramp (Club model) - tightly. This is somewhat of a time consuming process and not one you'd like to repeat over and over again in the blazing sun.

I choose the Tandem Island for many reasons and I'm completely satisfied with my choice, altho there are times with 15-20 knots winds I miss the Wave.


I can concur with cool dude capt (even to the point of writing "I miss my Wave" though deleted before posting) and add 2 points:
The Wave is extremely stable because it was intentionally under powered for the purpose of stability. (Look at the sail size in comparison to the boat) It was designed to sell to resorts as a rental boat for people who are on vacation, and who don't sail, so they had to make it easy and stable, which makes it fun! So stable that long after all the other boats have to seek shelter as winds climb past the mid-20s, Waves are having a ball.

The "Club" Wave is impractical for complete setup and disassembly, for the above mentioned reasons. The "Classic" Wave, again was designed for quick assembly/ disassembly, which comprises 4 pieces: 2 hulls and the front and rear crossbar rolled into the tramp. Assembly consists of sliding the crossbars into the hulls, tightening 6 Velcro straps, guiding in the tensioners and cinching up 2 tension straps. That's it. When disassembled, the tramp stays attached to the front crossbar, then velcros to the rear. The mast is a 2 piece- 12' aluminum and 7' "comp tip" that slips in.

Maybe... Your answer is to get a Wave and an outback or revo with sail and a side kick kit? Hmm...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:17 pm 
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I think I have read most of the responses here and this is my take.

1) It would really benefit you to go to a kayak shop that has both the AI and TI and try them out.

2) I'm a female, large build, strong but I do have aches and pains that set me back. I can singlehand the TI. However, from my observation, because I have a sailing background it has been no issue but for some they may get intimidated. I've a pre 2015, which btw that is what I would go with if I were you - better in lighter air and easier to manage on and off the water by yourself. It's at a dock where I have the kayak put in the water and I do the rest from there off the dock otherwise I would certainly need a trailer or my partner to do it. I have been fine singlehanding her in up to 25kt gusts thus far and while out on the tramp relaxing with sheet ready to blow, while steering the tiller handle with my toes - hitting 8.5kts. You can't do that on any other small vessel in such an effortless state and with little worry of capsizing while at such speeds. I used to race medium and large keelboats and also dinghies and I've sailed older Hobie cats too and the Wave. This is my favorite thus far, for me. Outside of learning I have never capsized a dinghy but I'm not that person that took a laser out in 20kts. This vessel I can, and still have a lot of fun, sail with beverage and music while not killing my body over it and keeping up with larger sailboats too. Be prepared for looks, from wtf to aww yeah that's sweet. When I had a dinghy and I really wanted to go out but it was over 15kts I'd just wish for a furler or a smaller sail on it so I could. Versus the beach cats it is also really cool to be so close to the water. Most importantly you also have the drives for exercise and clean, no worries, no o/b or towing necessary, aux power. If you want to get your speed on, once in a while and that more true sailing feeling then go rent a beach cat when the need arises and knock your socks off. Or find a buddy who has one and boat share/swap. Also, since you are in the PNW prone to light wind, I'd budget in the spinnaker so you can at least have some decent speed in light air going downwind and reaching.

3) From what you have divulged as your sailing ownership views and the kind of sailing you want I would get a TI and just tow it. Besides, most box truck conversions have the bed in the loft to best utilize space anyhow, unless you do a hydraulic bed at the door like a TH. Why not buy a truck and TC and tow it? That way you can go somewhere, drop off the the TC (aka home) and then go launch the TI when and wherever you want without taking your home with you (or just leave it all as one unit). If you have ever stayed aboard a sailboat for prolonged periods you know exactly what I mean by this.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:14 pm 
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I bought my TI back in 2014. Was used to smaller, lighter kayaks. After cabin cruisers and fishing boats, I swore I’d never go through the hassle of a trailer-bound boat again. Tried 90 ways to Sunday to get out of putting the TI on a trailer. Dealer finally talked me into the Trailex and I have thanked him ever since. I have taken the TI on its Trailex and little 8” tires on at least 10 trips from Central Georgia to South Florida’s Ten Thousand Islands (600 miles each way) at 80 mph down I 75. Never a problem. I can back the trailer down a ramp or I can walk the trailer by hand to a dirt / sand put in. I replaced the cheapo lights with sealed submersible LEDs and don’t have to worry about bulbs now.

I had never sailed in my life before the TI so I don’t know how to compare it, but I love sailing it. A single main sheet and a furling line, that’s it. Feels like having an engine with just a “start” button (assuming there is wind). Downwind isn’t great because the boomless sail folds like a taco, but people have come up with ingenious workarounds.
It’s not a perfect boat, but a really good one. My bottom line is that it is a complicated kayak but a simple sailboat. I like the balance overall. After owning it nearly 4 yrs I would buy it again.
Get the trailer! :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:27 am 
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Totch wrote:
My bottom line is that it is a complicated kayak but a simple sailboat.


That's the best description of the TI I've ever heard.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:10 am 
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Yes, well said Totch!

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:03 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
jay2018:

Hopefully I'm giving you some ideas here, basically try to avoid having to break the boat down, if you can put it into the Morgan truck with the boat fully rigged on the trailer, it will make your life much easier,


Thanks FusionEng! I had planned to use the pvc pipe method for my custom cradle, when I saw how expensive the Hobie cradles were... plus they don’t really fit my requirements so PVC it is.

The plan here is that the trailer effectively would stay in the truck, a back winch would lower the back of the trailer to the floor of the truck (it normally lives up at the roof) with the front of the cradle staying near the roof.... and then a second winch would lower the boat a few feet, close to the ground. I flip out the boats wheels, then the winch continues to lower the boat off the cradle... much like launching at a boat ramp only instead of water floating the boat, the wheels “float the boat” until I grab the front end. Should be very easy. Other than the mast it will remain fully rigged.

As others have pointed out these boats are vulnerable to UV radiation and I think a boat on a trailer (fully rigged) is vulnerable to road damage from debris, high wind forces and theft in parking lots. (Eg want to leave a go pro type camera on it and gps and other electronics.)

With this setup I think launching is going to be 5 minutes plus the time to walk it to the water... and the boat will always be with me. (If I’m towing it, I’ll have to decide each trip if I am gonna take it, and it will be no too often, and I’ll miss out on sailing lakes I don’t yet know of.)

I plan to travel full time and live in this truck.

I think some people may not be getting that,

Which means I’m either towing this boat trailer thru the snow in the mountains in winter or leaving it at “home” in the winter... and then it’s on the other side of the country from me in the spring!

That means that, say I leave it in Colorado and end up in California come spring, I’d have to drive across several states to get it!

Like a camera, the boat you gave with you gets used more often.

If I trailered it I could just buy an off the shelf motor home and that would be convenient but I’m sure the boat would end up living in land all the time.

I’m going to be traveling full time.




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:07 am 
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pro10is wrote:
I fear you're going to make this so complicated, so difficult, and such a hassle that you're going to end up really disliking the results.


This is what engineering is— spending time designing a solution up front so you have a more convenient life afterwards. The solution I’m contemplating is less hassle than trailering it (basically the custom “trailer” lives inside the rig with me.).... and saves me from having to cross several states to pick up the boat because it’s always with me. Most of the time it’s up at the ceiling out of the way. (I will still be able to stand up under it, but am planning on putting the sleeping and sitting areas under it so that the vertical space it takes up is not an issue.


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