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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:56 pm 
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As Jacques noted... we raised the topper (with a taller base) which effectively does the same thing as making the whole topper longer.

Do you have the taller topper base?

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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm
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Location: Houston, TX
Yes, I have the taller base. But the taller base only makes the mast topper sit taller. The mast topper needs to longer, as in bow to stern longer.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:08 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I don’t think we are going to be able to help here.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:10 pm 
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I have a picture that explains everything but I don't know what online picture hosting service to use. What works now?

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:44 pm 
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This is the concept. Higher topper is the same as a longer one... if you have the higher one and it still does not clear the sail and battens... you have a technique issue.

Green shows the higher topper and effective increase in clearance achieved.

Image

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Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:15 pm 
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Thanks for creating that picture and I understand Hobies logic now. The problem is that it only makes a real world difference of maybe an inch in added horizontal line clearance and that is not nearly enough to stop the snags, on my boat at least (and I suspect others too). Yes, I can slow my furling down and never get snags. But when a gust overwhelms you or you have to do an emergency furl for one of many reasons, you react quickly, not thinking or just not able to furl at the 1/2 to 1/4 normal speed needed to avoid a snag.

Here is my modified topper on the left and Hobie's improved topper on the right. My topper stick out 14 inches horizontally from the mast vs the 6 inch clearance the Hobie topper has. My topper has never snagged. I've tried to shorten the sharktubing (semirigid yet flexible tubing) on the fore side of the topper and as soon as I do I get snags if I go less than about 10-12 inches. I get snags about 95% of the time with normal speed furling when I use the Hobie improved topper.

Image

The extra height of the improved Hobie topper simply can't offer the needed clearance. You could add 6 FEET of extra height and the line angles are such that you would only be adding an inch or two of horizontal line clearance. My point is not that I can make a better topper but that Hobie should focus on length not height to solve this problem so that all those who what these spinnakers can feel comfortable enough to go out and buy them.

One solution may be to get rind of the thicker batten that is used in the current models and go back the the flimsier on in pre 2015 AIs. I would probably need to remain my boat Free Willie though. Seriously, a longer topper is the only real solution that I know will work.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:37 am 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
mmiller wrote:
This is the concept. Higher topper is the same as a longer one... if you have the higher one and it still does not clear the sail and battens... you have a technique issue.

Green shows the higher topper and effective increase in clearance achieved.

Image


Matt I agree with Greg. To clear the batten the topper needs to be a lot taller than the upgraded topper base, which has made no difference on my TI. A longer topper is needed, not taller.

https://www.hobie.com/au/en/forums/view ... 41#p301341

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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:26 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Stringy:
+1


Last edited by fusioneng on Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:28 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Vetgam:
Your story about your spinnaker getting all tangled actually happened to me once a long time ago. I was out sailing minding my own business, when it was time to come in the wind just happened to be right for me to return to harbor on a downwind. I normally stop about 1/4 to 1/2 mile from harbor and clean up the boat, (furl and put all the sails away), most other sail boats do the same. Then I either pedal or motor into the harbor, or just go in with the jib only, (I have the best control over the boat with the jib only in all conditions).
It was kind of windy that day, 20-23 mph winds), and for some really stupid reason I thought I could sail almost to the harbor with the spin flying, then immediately furl it in just in front of the harbor, boy was that stupid.....
As I got close to the harbor, (still a quarter mile out) I tried to furl in the main and spinnaker, but the halyard line got fouled, so I couldn't furl the spinnaker or the mainsail in. I entered the harbor going close to 20 mph, pretty much helpless. I ended up dropping my automatic anchor system, and released the main and spinnaker control lines, so the main and spin were flopping wildly, but the main and spin were hopelessly tangled.
The loose sails flogging around beat me senseless, I went home all bruised up, (including my pride).
Needless to say I never tried anything like that again, and made certain, nothing could ever tangle like that again. I think the root cause was the spinnaker rear stay/halyard, got twisted around one of the main sail battons ( I changed the design/setup after that).

I think most of us sail this way, we typically always start out upwind and beat our way for several hours upwind, then when time to go home, we open up the spinnaker, and it's a wild extreme ride home (lol 15 minutes). Actually for that very reason, I designed my boat to be equal performance both upwind and downwind.

I don't wish anything like this to happen to anyone else, the situation can become very dangerous, (fouling lines).

Sounds like you have experienced similar.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Yes, thanks for the info Bob. When I first got the spinnaker I looked at your mods and Gregs and all the others to stop the halyard fouling the batten. I tried one of mine own as well using bent alloy tent poles with pulleys, but I had trouble keeping it on the mast when raising and it also added friction on the halyard.
In the end I gave up and accepted that it was much easier just to furl the main to the first batten when using the spinnaker. I can put up with the main hitting the halyard on tacks/gybes when sailing on main only as the benefit of the spinnaker far outweighs that inconvenience and I haven’t had a tangle problem on tacks, only when furling.
I only revisited this because of Hobie’s so called fix, which clearly isn’t a fix at all. :?


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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:47 am
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Location: new smyrna beach
And here I thought I was crazy...... I made a 36" tall "riser" to fix the main line cutting into my neck when in the aft seating and also rested the Spinnaker line on it as well in hopes that would clear the main battens, it didn't. I seen the "fix" mast topper but after going out in driveway and visually looking at the angle again, it's VERY obvious that it's not height that needs fixed, it's length fore-aft. To fix batten clearance via height alone I'd need like 2-3' added. Guess I need to make/mod additional topper length myself. Glad I seen this post, thank you


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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2814
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
I think we might need to take a collective breath here..... while I am near the front of the queue pointing out the shortcomings of the standard Hobie spinnaker system for the Islands, it DOES work OK if you take care when raising or lowering sails. I guess most of us are just a bit frustrated knowing how much better it should be.

I will see how cleating the snuffing line helps once I find a cleat that will work on the port side aka (the one Hobie provides is designed for the starboard side).

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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:10 am 
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Location: Houston, TX
I agree I love the spinnaker and yes it works perfectly if you are willing to modify the length of the topper.. Tony, before you go drilling the aka, you can just tie off the halyard line to anything on the rear aka and determine if the latest fix will help. It was a clever thought but not a helpfull fix for me. Pex tubing and zipties is what everyone needs. I added acrylic extentions to provide rigidity to the topper length which allowed me to shorten the pex tubing a bit. I also bought a couple metal pad eyes that I bent and screwed to the topper to keep the pex tubing from sliding off the topper. It's a $10 fix. Looks like A $1 fix though.

Greg

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2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
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Location: Oceanside, California
stringy wrote:
I only revisited this because of Hobie’s so called fix, which clearly isn’t a fix at all. :?


We do not refer to the topper extension as a "fix". It was an improvement. You guys really are asking a lot of a complicated sail system. Spinnakers are not for the inexperienced and we have been very clear about that in literature. Try dealing with one without a snuffer system.

mmiller wrote:
A spinnaker is not an easy sail to fly... so not surprised people would have issues. They take some knowledge and skills to handle properly. This is the case with every spinnaker on every boat out there.

What complicates this is the large fat head sail design of the TI. This was in the design before spinnaker kits were created for the TI. On all sailboats there are techniques you have to use to gybe the spinnaker and on most every boat with a fat head main, you have to deal with that fat head during tacks and gybes when you have a running back stay (the halyard). In our case, Jim Czarnowski has always recommended furling the main during these maneuvers to most easily get the head through that aft triangle (under the halyard).


And... we try to keep the products as structurally sound as possible. Taller extensions and modifications may not be structurally sound.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: New Spinnaker Fix
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Matt,
I guess I expected too much of this upgrade, especially after reading this that you wrote in the spinnaker update:

“There is an issue that has come up from time to time. When the sail is not in use, the spinnaker halyard / back stay can get hooked on the mainsail battens when tacking, gybing or when furling the sail. Keeping a bit of tension on the halyard to keep it from drooping and catching the batten ends is critical.

We have done two things to help prevent this from happening. Last year we added a bit of additional height to the mast top swivel base. This was a running change started late last year:

This part raises the mast topper and gives more room for the battens to pass under the halyard.”

My point is that the little bit of additional height does little, really nothing. If you look at the pic I posted above the halyard still hits the batten by a long way.

So a longer topper (not taller) is out of the question? Too much leverage possibly?


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