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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:49 pm 
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A few more from today. These are hosted on FB so will go away after a while.

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captured in the photo 9.32 mph

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out sailing today

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:59 am 
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Another thought on the boom..

I bought the TI because it is super easy to rig and has a very high easy to use wind range made possible by the boomless furling sail. If its going to get windy, the TI is my choice of boat. And if its not going to be windy, also my choice because of the mirage drive (FYI, I have an outboard that I use on the TI but both the mount and the outboard are removed for pretty much all the sailing I do in Colorado which is where the pictures were taken). Super versatile boat that you can pedal in no wind (a great thing to do) and control in some scary high wind.

So.. I like the TI just as is with the easy to set up bendy mast - which as someone pointed out in another thread gives automatic control to sail twist and shape and another reason why this boat has such a high easy to use wind range.

However.. if you look at about every other sailboat that does not have a boom, they also will have a foresail and are generally fast. As I found out yesterday, when I had the sheet pulled in tight for pointing as high as possible, the boom really didnt do much as the pull from the rear of the boom was pretty much in the same direction of the sheet. If a sailboat has a foresail, this "prebends" the wind so that the back sail is usually sheeted closer to center - and that is also the case where you dont need a boom. Faster craft also tend to bring the apparent wind forward so the sails get sheeted closer to center - again where you dont need a boom.

But if you dont have a foresail, the main tends to operate at a higher angle of attack to the center line of the boat because you dont get the air flow prebend of the foresail. When the sail moves off the centerline of the boat, that is where a boom becomes more valuable.

Anyhow.. interesting experiment. The windsuring mast top section works great for this (most windsurfing mast are two piece and mostly carbon fiber so light and strong) but it is right in the way of a front pilots head..


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:11 am 
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Every boat I've ever sailed with a boomless rig (and there have been quite a few) I always think "this boat would be so much better with a boom" and my TI is no exception. My hope for the next TI is they'll add a Hoyt boom and a deeper/stiffer/thicker centerboard.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:38 am 
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I think a long traveler would also make a boomless sail work well even without a foresail. Easy to do on a catamaran. Not so easy on a TI. But you dont get the benny of the boom turning into a whisker pole for deep downwind.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:39 am 
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Guys:
A long time ago, (back in 2010-2011 sometime), I was planning to build a boom for my TI, (never actually made it, (I went with jibs and spinnakers instead).
But it wasn't a bad idea, I posted it on the forum at the time, but I'm sure that would be really hard to find now. I found the old pic that I posted.
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Basically what your seeing is two curved aluminum tubes, ( you would need to hand bend the tubing). Attached to each other on the ends with some type of wing nuts and bolts, (easily removed).
The rear would be attached to the sail clew.
The front is attached to a rope suspended from the mast topper, (or anything convienent up there, (obviously if you don't have a mast topper you would need to build something). A fixed length rope could be used, (that clips to the boom on the front). In my case I would just use one of my halyard lines, (so I could raise the front of the boom way high (or way low) to clear the spinnaker, when the spinnaker was deployed).
The only thing attached at the front is just that rope, (it's not attached to the mast at all) so the main can be furled/unfurled at will.

Breakdown would be very easy, just remove one of the bolts, and toss the thing into the hull for transport. The tube rubs against the sail, so you may need to put velcro or something on the inside surface of the tubes to prevent wear on the sail. I hadn't thought it all thru, and like I said I never did build it. Ended up with a 135 sq ft spinnaker on a rotofurler instead, (Hobies new spinnaker is 79 sq ft).

Don't ask too many questions, because I don't remember much detail wise, this goes way back, you would need to figure out the details yourself.
just throwin it out there.

FE


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Cool!

You have to keep in mind also that a boom should be stiff so that it doesnt compress. When a gust hits, a boom that is too flexible will compress and make the sail fuller - exactly the opposite of what you want.

If you were around in the heyday of windsurfing, the higher end booms went to super stiff carbon and they did increase the comfortable wind range of the sail.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Actually that’s where I got the idea from. Where I launch from there are always a bunch of windsurfer guys, ( the TI mast is a windsurfer mast). And the mast under load has a big bend in it just like windsurfer sails, (I think the TI sail follows more windsurfer characteristics than regular sail characteristics, that’s why it’s so dang hard to add jibs).. Actually a few of the windsurfer guys were running windsurfer sails bigger than my mainsail. I worked out a way to put one on my TI, but never did. I ended up going with the wing sail stuff instead.
Part of the problem with these boats is there is so much you can do mod wise to soup them up it’s hard to decide which mods you want. I ended up keeping the mainsail pretty much stock, and adding all my mods on top of the basic boat. Most everything was removable so I could pick and choose what I wanted to bring along depending on the conditions that day, or what I wanted to do that day. We always kept the kayak only mode available, actually when we travel, almost half the time we only use the kayak alone, and leave all the extra’s back at the campsite, ( pretty hard to get a 21ft long 13ft wide boat boat up a 9ft wide river, (lol).
Though being kayak sailers we did rig the 33sqft wing sail for kayak sailing, ( without AMA’s), boy wing sails are the coolest invention for kayak sailing, (just sayin), wing sails have very little side force, ( tryin to tip you over). Whenever we went kayaking we always had the kayak wing sail furled up strapped to the side of the boat, ( old habit I guess).
FE


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:53 am 
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Update and rev 2 of the boom experiment. Everything for the boom weighs 3 pounds total.

picture below. I think its too much hassle to try and do an adjustable outhaul from the end of the boom while sailing so I just changed the front rotating boom section to have an extra length adjustment hole. Its no longer an on the fly adjustment but I think that will be OK after using the setup

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picture below - I had to extend the windurfing mast a little and this is how I did it. The AL tube can still slide inside the mast in case I need to adjust the lenght a little bit and the hose clamp keeps the lenght constrained.

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Picture below. You need a very easy to disconect attachment to the end of the boom as the boom has to be disconnected in order to reef the sail. This is what I am trying now and I think it should be fairly easy to do from the rear seat if the boat is pointed into the wind. Also, I have the vang/ preventer very tight in the picture to see how much deflection I get with the boom. This is about what I also observed out on the water. This amount of bend is nothing at all for the windsurifng mast, they can take and normally operate at way more than this.

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picture below - I had the vang/ preventer attachment point slip down the boom last time so this is what Im trying now

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Picture below. The vang preventer influences sail shape and can adjust twist. This is the sail shape with the vang loose

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Picture below - this is with the vang tight. I think it reduced the twist of the top of the sail

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Picture below - this is what I had been using for down wind before trying the boom. The vang / preventer can still be used exactly like this when Im not using the boom. I now have this in a loop.

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picture below - comparison to the above picture for downwind using the boom as a whisker pole

Image


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Location: Cleveland, OH
I have an Expedition 14.5 that i've sailed thousands of miles over 17 years, in all kinds of freshwater winds and waves. The Hoyt boom is, IMO, utterly superior for every purpose but racing (unless racing like-rigged boats).

On a TI, it solves the heads up interference problem with the forward occupant by swinging a fixed path above both people's heads. In light air, it's way faster upwind and down because the boom is not slatting and destroying airflow, nor is the boom weight tensioning a dead leech. Downwind, the sail is ALL the way out, often forward of 90% for all kinds of flexibility of which jibe to be on etc. The value of infinite reefing is well understood to TI owners.

Matt Miller if you are reading this, a licensed Hoyt Boom option would be worth at least $750, can be shipped broken down, uses cheap bits of metal and a windsurf mast to manufacture, and would not be a liability issue for seated occupants. Design wise, a mirror of the forward crossbar mast bearing facing aft could be the upper boom bearing and a fixed steel pin on the floor could be the step. The pin could be fixed in metal straps descending from the bearing to the floor- similar to a mast receiver cup fixed from above. The forward curve is aluminum tubing bent to place the clew where it needs to be. The aft part of the boom is a carbon tube slipped over the tail of the curve. Could be a two-part boom aft tube for a three part assembly, strong and light. When transporting, the boom just stands in place too- and holds the boat cover in a nice tented configuration. Hard to beat on any level for a cheap, high performance accessory.

A beefy motor mount for max placarded wattage would also be worth at least $400 and is about 20 bucks of industrial material to fabricate.

As to a boom replacing a spinnaker?

No, but it increases downwind performance at least halfway, or more, and helps on every other point of sail, gets the mainsheet off the owner's head, and actually removes meaningful net hassle, while a spinnaker is the platonic realization of hassle-to-be. The motor mount option (for max placarded wattage of course) adds a similar new level of performance / capability.

And the grand ask? Use Hobie's expertise in composites to make a GRP option TI. The costs to mold the three hulls can't be astronomical, the amas would rarely be changed, and the main hull could finally be the fast, chined light flyer that it could be. That's a $4K option on a new TI (and worth it to people who already want to drop $7K on a kayak) with virtually zero manufacturing changes beyond hull fabrication. There has to be $2K per boat there profit without a heavy upfront investment, plus gaining a prestige flagship.

PS, sell some drivewell-plugs that are fair to the hull bottom when sailing with the drives out. Those are worth at least $50 each and can't cost much. Make them trimmable at home so people can get a nice fit. What you offer now is an insult to the fish.

Some small parts and options could take an already fine craft to a whole other level. Top-shelf.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Wow! That's certainly telling it like you see it! Very interesting,although my 72 year old mind exploded trying to visualise the componentry of the Hoyt boom :D

PS. I thought the drive stopper was pretty close to levedl on the pre- big chin models

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:25 pm 
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Location: Colorado
I just tried sitting in the front seat thinking that the preventer might make it possible to gently move the boom back and forth. I simply could not duck low enough. What I have is one back seat pilot only. But.. it only added 3 pounds and the sail twist adjustment is going to be fun to play with and I think useful.

Google "hoyt boom", lots comes up. It wasnt intended to solve the problem of a front pilot on a TI although it probably would. I wonder what the heck the patent is and is it still valid. Patents last something like 20 years and that has been around for a long time.

https://www.forespar.com/pdf/forespar-hoyt.pdf

http://www.garryhoyt.com/id48.html

edit.. found this https://patents.justia.com/inventor/john-g-hoyt The hoyt patent was granted in 1995 so probably expired in 2015 and is now for public use.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:47 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I would be careful with those booms on downwind in strong winds, the mast base is not strong enough to support it.
No problem with the normal taco shell sail, (stock sail), it can’t generate anough power to hurt anything.
Another issue that you will run into on downwind is the severe lack of flotation on the bow. And the fact that the mast on the TI is mounted too far forward on the boat.
With that boom out, in winds much over around 12-15 mph, the bow will dive underwater completely on a downwind, and it doesn’t come back up, ( you get really wet). Maybe not if your in the back seat, (I don’t know, never sat back there, and never would).
Adding a rear stay may prevent damage to the mast holder, ( hopefully), specifically the 1/4-20 stud in the base of the hull. I’ve broken ton of those 1/4-20 studs on TI’s when messin with the sails.
My opinion on these boats is unless your prepared to modify 20 other things on the boat when messin with the sails it’s best to leave it stock. If you want to go faster, get a different boat.
FE
Edit: I’m not knocking the boat at all, ( actually I love the TI’s), and I’m not knocking the boom idea, ( pretty cool). I’m just saying be cautious in higher winds, ( those masts, and the hull are really expensive).


Last edited by fusioneng on Sat May 19, 2018 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:35 pm 
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Quote:
Maybe not if your in the back seat, (I don’t know, never sat back there, and never would).


Yep..


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:35 am 
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Ive used the boom solo more and also used just the barber hauler loop with my wife in the front seat and am getting more and more pleased with this setup. If I am solo (from the rear seat), I will use the boom sometimes with the loop vang and sometimes without. The vang allows for some fine tuning of sail shape and sometimes its nice to tweak but even without that, the boom seems to do good things. The boom clears my head in tacks by about four or five inches so also no problem there.

Bunch of stuff I wanted to show.. All pictures are hosted on FB so will go away after a while.

First, I said earlier that the loop also acts like a "preventer" and a picture showing that is below

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Picture below was just before the one above where I was going deep downwind

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When I have my wife with me, we cant use the boom but the loop still works well as a barber hauler for going down wind. Not as fast as having the spinnaker but faster than stock.

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I have all the sail controls for the loop (and furler and main sheet) in the back seat. Using the loops is actually fairly simple, just pull in on one side and feed out on the other side. Picture below

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The ends of the loop need to "rotate" or the loop line gets twisted after being used for a while. What I been using for the hook at the end of the loop that allows the line to rotate (below)

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Another key part of the boom is to be able to both easilly connect and disconnect the boom from the sail. The clew of the sail is easy to grab as its just above your head but if the hook is floopy, its more of a pain. So Im trying something that allows the hook to rotate but a couple rubber gromits keep it somewhat captive. An oval bolt just stays with the sail also making clipping the boom hook easier. The oval bolt also gets used when Im not using the boom and clip on the loop.

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Finally, the centerboard control is accessible from front seat but I have a very simple modification to the paddle that allows me to easily drop or raise the centerboard. Very simple, just a couple 1/4 inch holes drilled in the paddle and a sewn rope loop. Loop slips over the centerboard knob to pull it down. Paddle easily pushes the centerboard knob forward to bring it back up.

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:49 am 
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Ive been testing and modifying the boom / loop at a mountain lake in Colorado elevation 8600 ft. With the boom connected to the sail, you cant reef the sail so its important to be able to quickly disconnect. And its just convenient to easilly connect things. This lake has been a good place to really push the limits because high mountain lakes tend to be very gusty. I was out yesterday at this lake and literally had about 60 seconds one time to go from everything hooked up to a serious reef. The hook for the boom to sail has gone through a bunch of iterations and seems to work fairly good now.. so an update.

First two pictures are some sailing shots downwind and reaching.

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The picture below was taken after a very rapid wind increase where the boom had be quickly disconnected and the sail furled.

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The next pictures show what Im using at the boom end. I had a floppy hook at the end of the boom and because the hook was floppy, it made it difficult to hold the hook in place when either trying to hook or unhook. So the hook is now rigid to the boom end. This way I can just grab the boom and know exactly where the hook is.

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Second problem was holding onto the oval bolt on the clew of the sail. I just changed the line that keeps the sail captively rolled up so that its now on the oval bolt. When I grab that blue line, it holds the oval bolt in place and also allows me to pull the clew of the sail back.

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Picture below shows the boom in use. The new rigid hook also keeps the end of the boom closer to the bottom of the sail.

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Overall.. its working nicely. Not completely brain dead because having the boom connected means you cant reef but I have had it in some pretty extreme gusty winds and am getting pretty comfy with the setup.


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