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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 8:39 am 
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I have just found out that in the short time I have had my TI (a few months), I have managed to inflict a lot of serious scratches on the bottom of my TI, a combination of several unfortunate circumstances that include
* being dragged around by the Harbor Patrol during a rescue of sorts, and
* my cradles scratching the heck out of the hull during trailer loading and unloading (still learning on that)

What I call "serious scratches" are those that I found by just passing my hand over the bottom. I estimate some of them may be as deep as 1 mm (1/32 inch)

My question:
* How common is my situation?
* Is this something that may have serious consequences for the boat?
* Besides replacing the cradles by PVC bunks (I can't understand how the cradles were designed...), anything else I should do?

PS: I am dismayed by how the cradles have contributed to the problem (my awareness process started when I found red smears – the color of my TI) on the cradles themselves, specially in combination with the Malone trailer, which by default places the cradles so high that a high-angle vertical approach to on-boarding is unavoidable (and turns the sharp-edged cradles into slicers.
PS 2:: I recommend against the Malone MicroSport for anybody with TI trailering capabilities, for two reasons:
* The default position of the cradles is VERY high, because of the supports used
* Even after attempting to replace the supports (which I did), the distance between wheels is shorter than the width of the folded TI. That means that the cradles must be places necessarily ABOVE the top of the wheels, which is higher than desirable.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:40 am 
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Wow! I don't understand how your cradles are causing scratches. I have a Trailex trailer with cradles and get no scratches loading the boat.

Maybe you could post some pictures for me (& others?) to see what the problem is.

I'm sure some of us in S FL get scratches on beaches as we drag our partially loaded boats over coral, shells, and oyster shell clumps.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 10:22 am 
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I have a good many scratches and some are as deep as the ones you mention. But, you are unlikely to have a breach in the hull in those areas unless you get more scratches in the same scratch. I supposed with enough wear, such as dragging the boat across concrete, you will eventually wear through the hull just as you could sand through it if you spent enough time doing so. But individual scratches aren't likely to cause any problems, at least not for a long, long time.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 10:31 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Interesting discussion.
We all know the TI hulls are kinda soft and scratch easily. However the only other alternative being a harder plastic, but with a much higher risk of cracking and leaking.
Unfortunately the choice of available rotomolding plastics is extremely limited, (you can count all the roto molding plastics supplers with one hand). That’s the business I’m in, I invent and develop new plastics, and manufacturing methods.
As far as roto-molding goes, Hobie in my opinion knows more about rotomolding than anyone out there, (they are true experts in the industry).
The mirage drive pockets on these boats creates like 5-10 times the stress on the plastics verses any other kayak made, so most other kayak makers can get away with harder but inferior to cracking plastic.
It has taken Hobie many years of continous improvement to make kayaks with mirage drives with a very low failure rate. It’s actually been years since I’ve heard much of anything about hull cracks, especially in the mirage drive area.
Our first Hobie was a I think was about a 2006 that we bought used, within a couple weeks of getting the boat it developed a crack in the mirage drive well and we had to throw it away, (lesson learned, we only bought new after that with the warranty). Back then it was a common problem, now it’s not.
Personally I prefer a near indestructable boat that you just can’t hurt over something that doesn’t scratch, but easily cracks and fails.
One thing we like to do is run mild class 2 rapids with our TI’s ( in kayak mode of course). We literally bounce off giant rocks all the time.
Living in Florida there is a lot of coral heads, shallow water, and oyster beds that all scratch the heck out of the boat. We would go out most weekends.
We got to the point that we didn’t bother to even flip the boat over and look at the bottom except once annually, where we flip the boat and inspect and make any repairs. Once repaired the hull bottom is like new again. I honestly cannot tell any difference in speed between shiny and new, and all tore up like it survived WW2, (what it looks like after a year).
On our first boat we were very careful and wouldn’t pull up on the beach in fear of scratching the boat. By the time we got to our 8th Hobie, when following rivers to their headwaters, ( one of our favorite things to do), we just drag the dang thing over all the rocks and gravel, ( you can’t hurt it, the darn thing is near industructable). Also at first we always pulled the mirage drives before beaching.... Not anymore, we just put the bungy on the mirage drive and drag the whole works up on the beach, the mirage drives are also near indestructable, and if damaged, they are easily repaired. The abuse we put our boats thru is beyond belief.

Now, how to repair scratches, ( it’s very easy and fast). We only flip the boats over and look at the bottoms once a year in the spring. You should probably order a Hobie Welder ( in their catalog) and learn how to use it, (really simple, next time your in your dealer just have them show and explain how to weld PE).
We clean and scrub the hull with a scrub brush, ( I just use carwash soap). Next you look over all the scratches, any really deep scratches it’s best to melt in new plastic with the Hobie Welder, (all the dealers carry the color matching welding rods, ( and the welder comes with a good supply). Our dealer just gives us new welding rod if we run out of a certain color. Once you get the hang of it you can fix a dozen nasty gouges in 30 minutes, ( it’s easy).
Next I go thru and remove all the small scratches. It’s actually very easy, you need a nice sharp single edge razor blade, and one of those razor blade holders, (look in paint dept at home depot). What I do is hold the blade vertical then swipe back and forth quickly over the scratch until it disappears. The plastic comes off in the form of snow. Once you get below the scratch or stain, you done, it looks just like new nothing else to do.
Change your blades often as they get dull, it takes me about an hr or two to completely clean and refinish the hull bottom every year.
Don’t worry about scratching thru the hull, it’s plenty thick, I would take 15 yrs of scraping to scrape thru the hull.

We had the PVC bunks on our trailer, and liked them very much, I’m not knocking hobies cradles, don’t know much about them and can’t comment either way.
FE


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:41 am 
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As is usually the case, I am overwhelmed by the generous and warm responses I get from all of you. I am an early adopter (and even contributing founder) of several communities, but I have never seen such a wonderful group of people. Thanks for that!

So, I have uploaded some pictures. Here are the links:
http://iweave.net/Scratches/IMG_3403.JPG
http://iweave.net/Scratches/IMG_3399.JPG

If you prefer to see more details, just go to http://iweave.net/ and select "Scratches"

Now, let me respond to some of your very kind messages:

a) Never have dragged the boat over cement, rocky sand or even sand (except when already half-in-the-water
b) I cannot show you the back cradle (which was the one with more signs of having scratched the boat) because I proceeded to cover it with carpet yesterday. But the front one is still uncovered, and you can see the scratches in it in the picture below, as well as a "flake" of red, which comes from the boat. The cradle that is not covered with carpet was much much much worse, it had red smears all over, specially near to the "cusps" of the profile. The clear bubbles in the picture are just water, it sprinkled last night.
http://iweave.net/Scratches/IMG_3394.JPG
c) Many of the scratches are in the scupper groove section, which highlights that the scratches are almost certainly inflicted by the cradles (on a flat ground they wouldn't be the first to be scratching)
d) Some of the pictures in the album show the "concave depression" that formed in the bottom of the boat when the Harbor Patrol pulled all overly boat to turn it over and drag it to the beach. That is not related to the scratches.
e) I didn't know you could fix the scratches, FE, thanks for bringing that up!

Finally, I have decided also to try the PVC bunks (even as I am covering the cradles with carpet), but it will take me a couple of weeks until I have time for that.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Location: South Florida
zorzal, I just can't agree with what you say. See your IMG_3402, which I have annotated.

Image


Two things are most bothersome. (1) You seem to have embedded pebbles in the bottom of your hull. My interpretation is that your boat has been pulled sideways, maybe on your driveway, and picked up some scratches and pebbles. If it is loaded onto your cradles, it might appear that your cradles are causing scratches. (2) If the scratches were caused by the cradles, they would be parallel to the length of the boat, not at an angle to it. Because of a bum hand, I've not been able to use my boat. When I do, I'll get a picture or video of loading my boat onto my trailer.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


Last edited by Chekika on Tue May 22, 2018 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:54 pm 
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Thanks, Keith. You make very interesting points. The lateral dragging hypothesis, though, doesn't hold. Let me give you more information:

* The boat was never dragged sideways on my garage or elsewhere, except by the harbor patrol of Long Beach, when they unceremoniously dragged my boat onto the beach pulling from an ama. The sand may have contained pebbles.

* The pictures do not convey the whole story. They were taken with my phone on a whim, with no thought for lighting or focus or anything else, not with my Hasselblad ;) . I can only tell you that visually I can see scratches that are longitudinal, and on the scuppers groove. I have no idea about the transversal scratches. I could only think that those were made sliding the cart under the boat... but then again, I put the cart on the back, not the front. And, of course, i load my boat aligning the nose onto the cradles, like possibly everybody else does.

Coming weekend I will turn the boat upside down, trace the scratches, and make a more formal analysis. Your point is very valid, there must be a valid explanation outside of the dragging theory.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:12 pm 
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I've removed those gray pads because they seemed to hinder sliding my boat onto the cradles. Zorzal, have you ever cleaned your cradles and rubbed your hand on them? What is there to scratch you boat. My cradles are very smooth...nothing to scratch my boat when it is pulled up on them. What is there on your cradles to scratch the bottom of your boat?

edit: BTW, when solo, I load my boat at an angle onto the trailer, because I can't get both amas on the trailer simultaneously. Loading at an angle, allows me to put one ama up, pull the boat up a bit, then go around and put the other ama up on the trailer.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:06 am 
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Keith,

the cradles are all scratched, as shown in the pictures. I bought them used from Southwind Kayak. They were slightly scratched, but they become much more worn out recently. Definitely NOT shiny and clean as you say yours are. The only thing that may be blamed for the deterioration of the cradles is sand on the bottom of the kayak when I slide it back onto the trailer (?) - I like the scientific approach to understanding what anomalies can justify the wear and tear, and I understand the doubts about weird treatment of TI and/or cradles, but I am just a common user, a newbie to the TI but with years of sailing and motoring experience on larger boats, sliding the kayak out and into the trailer, from the right end, in an aligned fashion. No mysteries there.

The only things I have noticed on the cradles are
* the deterioration (both in them and on the TI).
* the edges where the cradles end front and back are somehow sharp (ad if they had been CUT out of a mold), as opposed as the rounded profile that I would have expected (then again, I did not design the things).
* when looking from below, there is uneven and unmistakeable gaps between cradle and boat, at several points, up to 3/8 inch or so, including at the scupper groove, regardless of how I move the boat forward and backward. That's why I have commented "I can't understand how the cradles were designed" (and tested).
* the cradles are identical in shape to another set I compared them with (except for the wear, because the other set is new).

Following on the "transversal" scratch on the bottom of the TI, the deepest of them all: I have concluded after your questions puzzled me, that they were caused by the Harbor Patrol who, when I capsized in Long Beach proceeded to right the TI up, then dragged it with a boat hook stick up onto the very sharp transom of their boat (sharp because if was edged with an aluminum L profile). I reckon that the way they dragged it up (at a 45 degree angle) must have inflicted the "transversal" scratch(es). Further, as they dragged the TI all the way to the beach, about a mile away, the boat unavoidable moved, because they wouldn't go slow about it. It was painful to watch, it must have been painful for the TI bottom as well.

Finally, about the embedded foreign body, I would guess it happened in the same episode, when rescue personnel dragged the boat from the shore, equally carelessly.

Thanks a lot for following my comments, your observations have been very revealing and insightful :D


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:56 am 
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Actually if it was the coast guard that rescued you, I’m really suprised that they saved your boat, (they don’t normally do that most places), they save people, not boats.
Normal operation I’m told is once they rescue the people, they notify salvagers of the boats position, ( theirs a standard process). Then it’s a foot race for the first salvager to get their sticker on the boat. They then have a certain amount of time to tow the boat to their yard, (similar to an impound tow yard for cars). It can easily cost you five grand to get your boat back, way more if it’s a big one.
Actually there was a TV series all about the life of these salvagers recently on I think A&E.
People tell me if the CG deems the boat to be a hazard to navigation at the time, they may sink it with their 50 cal, ( I have no idea if true)
Our friend ran out of gas with his 24 foot powerboat about 2-3 miles out off of anna maria island, fl, the CG couldn’t do anything, and told us to call Seatow or BoatUS, (gave us their phone numbers and radio frequency). Tow US wanted like $400 bucks to bring us gas, or around $600 to tow us to a nearby marina, (I don’t recall the exact figures). It was a nice day we weren’t in any danger, ( and we had plenty beer).
I just assume the same rules apply everywhere.
I’m thinkin they did you a huge favor recovering your boat, hopefully you thanked them profusely. A couple scratches here or there was a small price to pay IMO, they may have saved your life. We have been in that situation several times, with a lot of very expensive damage at times, you did very well, (now you know to furl your sail in a couple turns when it’s windy).
I described how to fix the deep scratches, ( you can fix yourself with a little practice).
Our latest TI was a 2012 model with thousands of very hard offshore miles on it, and was still going strong when we sold it last fall. These boats are extremely durable. I don't care much about scratches, too busy having an absolute blast with the boats, (nothing in the world matches what we have, (Hobie invented it), just sayin).

I think you did ok, (wear your scratches proudly, you survived, lol)

FE

Edit: I’ve read about other guys removing the grey material from their Hobie cradles, ( don’t know much about the Hobie cradles). I’ve helped a few guys drag their TI’s onto their cradles, ( that grey material seems sticky IMO and harder to drag the boat over), but that’s all just my opinion,( not based on much experience, so I defer to others). We have pvc bunks, and the boat slides off the trailer all by itself at the boat ramp, (lol you need to hold on to a line as the boat falls off the trailer). We also added a boat winch to get the boat on the trailer, (just like power boats), It’s a back saver, ( the boat winches are like $25 bucks at Harbor Freight, (yea I use a cordless drill sometimes, guilty)). Keep in mind though all our TI’s were heavily modified with twin outboards, and massive sailsets, (21 ft long and over 12ft wide, super hardened for offshore use in the Keys).
Hoping I’m of some help here.

Edit again: Disclaimer: We live part time in Key West and have a lot of friends who live there and are boat captains, and crew down in the Keys, (yea we get the resident discount, lol) this is all the stuff they are feeding us, also they keep warning us that the area is really really dangerous, and we really shouldn't be doing what we do, and never ever go here or there, way too dangerous, (drug smugglers). It’s likely all a bunch of crap for all I know. We don't go down their much anymore unfortunately.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:34 pm 
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FE, the capsize happened in an inside loop of water which is part of the Long Beach Harbor, not out in the ocean. As it turns out, the boat that dislodged the boat from where it had stuck itself, partially pulled it above the boat, and dragged to the beach a mile or so around the loop of water *was* a Harbor Patrol boat. They didn't rescue us, we had already come out of the water with help from a local Yatch Club (we were entertainment for their on-the-water champagne-ridden party :P

I actually wanted to jump into the water and right the boat myself, but they wouldn't allow me (the water was pretty cold, and the boat was stuck between a dock and a very large boat).

Yeah, I am thankful. I just hated the snotty attitude of treating a presumed newbie like crap, all because I had the audacity of sailing on a small craft advisory day and my trainee got scrambled at the lines :P Would you believe that? :D

As for the actual salvage routine, I also went through that a couple decades ago, when we crashed onto a submerged container dropped by some freighter near Ensenada. But that was a 34 footer Pacific Seacraft, a beauuuuutiful cruiser, not a Hobie. Ended up calling on our insurance when we realized she would stay afloat no matter what. BoatUS came, but we had already gone on the radio; by the time they arrived, we had a circle of rescuers orbiting us, just like sharks.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:27 pm 
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an you please post photos of your cradles, which sound, from your description, to have been cut down by the previous owner. All edges on my 2012 cradles have a nice soft downward curve, and there are NO sharp edges anywhere near my hulls. The curves do not tightly follow the shape of the hull, but provide support for the majority of the surface.

If you plan to take photos of the scratches to the hulls, can I suggest you put a light source along the surface, which will highlight surface damage.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:23 am 
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Tony,
The only pictures of the cradles are the existing ones. As shown in one of the pictures, I covered them with outdoor carpet glued with marine carpet clue (Roberts 6700). As for the scratches, when I get a weekend with some time left over, I will take more pictures.

For now, though, the evolution of this thread told me loud and clear that my situation is not one faced by other Hobie owners: the original question was wether other people had this same problem, but the thread quickly turned into what had I done to cause the scratches.

So, the thread has fulfilled its objective as far as I am concerned, and I learned many valuable take aways:
* The cradles cannot have caused the scratches (rescue probably did). If they had, the carpet covering should address the cause until I replace them
* Other people, including FE, are happy with the PVC bunks. So, 60 feet of 1.5" Sch 80 PVC are already in the garage
* The scratches are not serious enough to worry, and if they come to be, they are fix-able (Thanks FE!).
* I should have used a more professional camera with better lighting (I will if my interest on the scratch is revived)
* The cradles provide only a few band of contacts with the boat, only as long as the width of the cradle, whereas the PVC bunks provide a double line along over half of the boat: that motivates me to put some time into making sure my coming PVC bunks are well designed. Further, with silicone et.al. I should be able to make the on boarding and dismounting much less friction-bound. In the meanwhile, the slippery surface of the outdoor carpet should provide OK.

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:56 am 
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I think the trick on PVC cradles is the height of the PVC in relation to the cross support bars.
Ideally you want the hull to rest in the grooves on 11” centers running the length of the boat. However if the 3-5 cross bars, ( that support the PVC) have too wide of a gap to the lowest points on the hull, (the rounded lowest points on the hull) this can cause problems.
With the boat on the trailer, (before strapping down, or settling). Ideally you want around a half inch or so gap between the lowest points on the hull and the trailer cross bars.
Eventually, (especially in warm climates) the lowest points on the hull settle onto those cross bars, (you need several for an even load distribution).
No damage occurs to the hull, (like flat spots, because there is not enough pressure).
As Matt has noted, if the PVC rails are too tall, there is a risk of caving in the center of the hull, and/or pushing up all the scupper posts thru the top of the hull.
To support the AMA’s , ( which rest on the cross bars), we just took some foam insulation and taped it down on the cross bars or the outer trailer frame, so the AMA’s rest on little soft pads in a few places. We just taped the foam down with 3m black electrical tape, (amazingly durable stuff).

If you extend the back ends of the PVC tubes past the back of the trailer, they work amazingly well at guiding the boat onto the trailer in cross winds, (you have to experience the problem to understand it,,,, you will).
At the far back of our trailer, ( between the pvc rails) adding a roller in the center makes loading the boat onto the trailer much easier.
We also added a cheap harbor freight winch to our trailer, (like $25 bucks).
When we want to load the boat we of course back the trailer up to the waters edge, (but we never dunk our tires). We then unwind the winch so the hook is a foot or so from the back of the trailer. I always load on the trailer with the ama’s out and typicallycall the sails and masts up, ( but all furled), and the motors tilted up. I then guide the boat to the back of the trailer, ( the boat is in the water), the boat doesn’t have to be perfectly straight. I then lift the bow up onto the roller and pull the boat forward a foot or so, (so it doesn’t fall), then I clip the winch hook to the bow, once clipped the boat can’t fall back off. Even if the wind pushes the back of the boat to one side or the other, don’t worry about it, ( the pvc rails will straighten the boat as your winching)
I then walk up to the winch and crank the boat up onto the trailer, truth be known, I often just use my battery powered electric drill to crank the boat up. I have a really bad back and know I would never be able to drag my boat up onto cradles, (I’ve done it plenty times helping othercwith cradles). Typically I’m only lifting the bow only, ( with the lift handle) about 6” to get into the roller at the back of the trailer, then pull forward a foot or so, ( the boat is floating, and rolls easily on the roller, (actually very easy)
Once cranked up on the trailer, with ama’s out and sails up I pull away from the ramp or beach up to level ground, and put the boat away some place out of the way of the active ramp or beach. Yea if it’s windy I might put one strap on to keep the boat from tipping, before pulling away from the water.
Launching is way easier, I typically set the whole boat up in the parking lot, put the AMA’s out, tramps on, put all the sails up, and start the motors, (to make sure they work), then tilt them up, (basically ready to go). I usually put 1 strap on to keep the boat on the trailer.
I then back up to the water, (much easier with the boat rigged because you can see everything, (I can’t see the boat back there with everythig down).
Once at waters edge I take the strap off, then take the clip off the winch, then a little shove. The boat flies off the trailer, ( gravity). Actually it’s a good idea to gave a bow line in your hand, (yep ours has floated away and we had to go catch it). Obviously if your launching at a beach into two inches of water, it’s a little more work, ( the two inch deep water describes our normal launching beach at low tide).
Takes us around 15 minutes to launch or retrieve.
Hope this helps
FE

Edit: oops forgot to add.... If you have a newer boat, (2015 or newer), most are equipped with siphon drains right in middle of the 11” grooves. My opinion is don’t worry about them, they are designed stron enough for the boat to drag over them while loading/ unloading, your not going to hurt them ( I’m told). However grooving out the PVC bunk in the area around the scupper drain in probably a good idea, (specifically when the boat is in it’s final storage position). Others have done this.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Thanks, FE, as always going the extra mile. I will follow your "PVC primer" carefully, and let you know how it goes. ETA a couple of weeks :)


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