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 Post subject: Wings instead of Ama's
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:20 pm
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Location: Campbell, CA
My AI is a behemoth on top of my sedan and RV. Ama drama.. so away with amas, and in with wings! Hobie 17-style. Made from a modified set of Aka's, using custom trampolines, and perhaps a TI sail.

I have not yet done this, but I wanted to gather opinions and pointed criticism before spending time and money.

Some of the mechanical stuff is straightforward, (helm, sheet, and Aka mods, etc...), some isn't, such as loading on the cross-beam/aka mounts, load moment, etc.... I am also super curious about boat handling problems that I may not be considering. E.g. off the wind in 20kts, going to weather in too little wind. I have sailed extremely tippy boats, (RS Aero, Laser) and over a decade of F18 racing, but perhaps I will get out there on the water with my winged AI, and wish I had appealed to the wisdom of crowds... So crowd, what is your wisdom?

Thanks,

Dan
Campbell


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:22 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
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Location: High Point, NC
You won't be able to sail it without the amas. The AI isn't a boat along the lines of the "tippy" sailboats you've sailed in the past. It's a kayak.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 4:37 pm
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Location: Kallangur, Queensland, Australia
I'd try it first just going out without the akas/amas and putting the sail up, before spending any time/effort/money constructing anything.

As mentioned, it's a kayak and not a boat, so the hull shape isn't going to respond well to much sideways force from the sail.

A mate of mine has an older Tandem Oasis with the sail kit. The sail is much, much smaller than a TI or AI sail, so I think that's an indicator of the size of sail you can get away with without akas/amas... as well as not having a more robust mast receiver setup.

But you've got nothing to lose by testing it out... find a nice safe stretch of water and report back to us!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:51 pm 
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Location: Oceanside, California
It will fall over just with the mast and sail up furled I think. I sailed a Hobie prototype boat years ago. Not a comfortable sail and the AI is not crawling friendly. Harder to move about.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:31 am 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 2:01 pm
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Location: SW Florida
Dan P. wrote:
My AI is a behemoth on top of my sedan and RV. Ama drama.. so away with amas, and in with wings! Hobie 17-style. Made from a modified set of Aka's, using custom trampolines, and perhaps a TI sail.

I have not yet done this, but I wanted to gather opinions and pointed criticism before spending time and money.

Some of the mechanical stuff is straightforward, (helm, sheet, and Aka mods, etc...), some isn't, such as loading on the cross-beam/aka mounts, load moment, etc.... I am also super curious about boat handling problems that I may not be considering. E.g. off the wind in 20kts, going to weather in too little wind. I have sailed extremely tippy boats, (RS Aero, Laser) and over a decade of F18 racing, but perhaps I will get out there on the water with my winged AI, and wish I had appealed to the wisdom of crowds... So crowd, what is your wisdom?

Thanks,

Dan
Campbell

try standing up in the AI with the 16ft sail furled in the 16ft kayak where you don't mind falling over
I'm a very new sailor, age 72, and was questioning my sanity a mile from shore, 1 ama almost buried zipping along in 1-2ft rough waves, sail partially furled, and thankful I (probably) wouldn't capsize & drown, the winds slowly and inexorably rising and the surf/waves getting wilder and more random directions.
the ama's definately are needed


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:07 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:59 am
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Location: Cleveland, OH
I've sailed the TI with one Ama for kicks and shiggles. I'd describe the heel as slowly, then suddenly. I think an AI with no amas is even less stable than an IC.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:51 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:19 am
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Location: Northern VA
Wouldn't think of ever sailing w/out the Ama's. I will usually leave one side attached if we just go kayaking - nice to carry the cooler on the hakka.

If loading/unloading are the issue - remove the ama/aka's to load separately. I have my TI on a trailer with the ama/aka's attached which I can launch from the trailer on a ramp or even slide out on my cart to move the full boat intact.

BUT when I am beach launching or rough terrain between the trailer to launch I always remove the ama/aka's. Couple of trips but way easier to move.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Matt is correct, just the weight of the mast with the sail furled tips the boat over, (a TI with no AMA’s).
Just for the fun of it I did rig one of my old TI’s for kayak sailing, (with no AMA’s). And it worked quite well, though I seldom used it that way, (I was more of an open ocean kind of guy in the keys, ( scuba diver)). And needed major sails, and twin outboards on a heavily modified TI rigged for offshore.
Lol we started out as kayak sailers on our revo’s many yrs ago, so I was trying to get back to that with the TI kayak sailer setup, for when we traveled inland, (we travel around the country a lot with our RV).
The TI mainsail turned out to be unsuitable for kayak sailing, (way too much side force and weight aloft, ( too tall).
So I designed and built a 35sq ft wing sail, (around 6” thick and around 4 ft at the bottom, then very narrow at the top, ( around 1 ft), I think it was around 16 ft tall. It was pretty equal powerwise to the main TI sail but with almost no side force, ( you kind of need to understand wing sails well to grasp the concept)
But even with that wing sail, I had to install a 50 lb swinging keel weight, ( height adjustable down to 3 ft). All mounted in the rear mirage drive pocket, and easily removed.
Just for fun one day I put my aka bars in upside down, and attached the tramps, it all worked, but looked silly. Never got around to making the wings, (like you describe), would have been around 2 ft wide tramp material, ( using old cut off aka bars).
Since I only used the thing maybe five times, it ended up just piled up in the garage with my other crazy ideas.
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:21 am 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 2:01 pm
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Location: SW Florida
fusioneng wrote:
Matt is correct, just the weight of the mast with the sail furled tips the boat over, (a TI with no AMA’s).
Just for the fun of it I did rig one of my old TI’s for kayak sailing, (with no AMA’s). And it worked quite well, though I seldom used it that way, (I was more of an open ocean kind of guy in the keys, ( scuba diver)). And needed major sails, and twin outboards on a heavily modified TI rigged for offshore.
Lol we started out as kayak sailers on our revo’s many yrs ago, so I was trying to get back to that with the TI kayak sailer setup, for when we traveled inland, (we travel around the country a lot with our RV).
The TI mainsail turned out to be unsuitable for kayak sailing, (way too much side force and weight aloft, ( too tall).
So I designed and built a 35sq ft wing sail, (around 6” thick and around 4 ft at the bottom, then very narrow at the top, ( around 1 ft), I think it was around 16 ft tall. It was pretty equal powerwise to the main TI sail but with almost no side force, ( you kind of need to understand wing sails well to grasp the concept)
But even with that wing sail, I had to install a 50 lb swinging keel weight, ( height adjustable down to 3 ft). All mounted in the rear mirage drive pocket, and easily removed.
Just for fun one day I put my aka bars in upside down, and attached the tramps, it all worked, but looked silly. Never got around to making the wings, (like you describe), would have been around 2 ft wide tramp material, ( using old cut off aka bars).
Since I only used the thing maybe five times, it ended up just piled up in the garage with my other crazy ideas.
FE

dude, are you still up there is sarasota?
learning to sail an AI on the Caloosahatchie with a lot of pedaling in our canals.
definitely need the ama’s out on the river. dodging the crab pots
very nice for gunkholing up some of the estuaries and such


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:03 pm
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Location: Va Beach, Virginia
Dan P. wrote:
My AI is a behemoth on top of my sedan and RV. Ama drama..

Thanks,

Dan
Campbell


I know of your pain. I used to load an older AI on a truck with amas in back. Have you no place to store a trailer?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I had the same pain roof topping the old TI’s, actually wrecked my back and had to sell them, ( doctors orders). We had a trailer and used it when we didn’t have the camper along, we also always had to car top when we went to our key west home, because there is no parking in key west.
We now just have small paddle yaks that we can throw in the back of the truck, lol now my back is better I can now swim, and paddle regular yaks, (the reason we bought Hobies in the first place was because of my broken back injury from long ago, ( couldn’t twist my body to paddle, but peddling was fine).

We are going to the Chassahowitzka river in june, never been there, and have no idea even where it is, (wife made the reservation). But I don’t think it the same river as the caloosahatchie river, (lol too many weird river names around here)
FE


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 2:01 pm
Posts: 103
Location: SW Florida
fusioneng wrote:
I had the same pain roof topping the old TI’s, actually wrecked my back and had to sell them, ( doctors orders). We had a trailer and used it when we didn’t have the camper along, we also always had to car top when we went to our key west home, because there is no parking in key west.
We now just have small paddle yaks that we can throw in the back of the truck, lol now my back is better I can now swim, and paddle regular yaks, (the reason we bought Hobies in the first place was because of my broken back injury from long ago, ( couldn’t twist my body to paddle, but peddling was fine).

We are going to the Chassahowitzka river in june, never been there, and have no idea even where it is, (wife made the reservation). But I don’t think it the same river as the caloosahatchie river, (lol too many weird river names around here)
FE

near Weeki Wachi where the mermaids swim, north of tarpon springs


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:20 pm
Posts: 155
Location: Campbell, CA
Thanks, everyone, for the comments. I am glad I sought community input to point out my oversight (mast/sail lever moment over a cylinder floating in the water makes it impractical at best.)

to fusioneng: I would like to see pictures of some of the innovative TI engineering you have done.

All the best!

Dan


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 4:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3058
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I don’t know how to link old posts, so I just did a reply on the old ultimate tandem island thread, (hydrofoils,spinnakers,etc).
Should be lots of pics in there, but it’s a really old and long thread.
FE


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:31 pm 
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Location: Campbell, CA
Fusioneng (?Bob?) impressive improvising, economizing and engineering work on your TI. The thread had some other people's keel designs that have me considering a water ballast keel / centerboard affair that will allow me to amputate the amas.

Dan


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