Course made good efficiency in a Tandem Island

For those who sail their tris in weather fair and foul, which would you say is the optimal angle into the wind for the fastest course made good?

I went out yesterday with a plan to head due West based on a southerly wind that was actually Southwest to west southwest and my anticipated 45 minute trip became almost 2 hours. Rather than sale and optimal close Hall which I think in a TI is over 50°, I cheated a little more into the wind trading efficiency for a straighter course.
Frankly I don't have enough time in the saddle to know whether or not my strategery paid off, but it does feel as though it didn't.
What are y'all's experience in this matter and does anyone have a definitive answer?
The wind was probably in the teens with gusts in the low twenties. It was a great day to be on lake Dora including the surprise motorboat regatta parked in front of my destination in Tavares.

TIs upwind sailing capabilities are weak.... typical is in the 45 to 50 degrees close hulled.

Add in unfavorable current....50 to 60 degrees.....

Add in stronger head winds 20+ mph.... will be a no go.

Solution: Get a motor and use it liberally when fighting strong head winds and currents.

Currently sailing in the Florida Keys putting in 20-40 miles a day.... need to pay careful attention to wind direction, speed and weather. Sailed up to Key Largo (15 miles) for the EC finish line....nice speedy sail mostly down wind with expectation of a fair bit of motor on the return leg.... got into a tough spot when the motor failed due to bad gas / water. Had to fight my way all the way back sailing up winds into 15-20+ mph winds plus an unfavorable current. Needed all of my sailing skills and backcountry mangrove weaving to make it back safely. Was averaging 50 degrees plus on return tacks..... with liberal use of the Mirage drive all the way.

Figure an electric motor would have helped to avoid the bad gas.

Notes on bad gas..... been squeaking by using normal auto unleaded gas with 15% ethanol plus some additives. Did not fair to well on this trip! Since switched to the recommended Rec 90 gas (0% ethanol). Much improved.

_________________
Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold

I concur with all of Jim's observations. Sailing the TI can be very problematic in many headwinds and rough water situations causing a very slow or no-go situation. This is why I mounted a motor after my first year of owning a TI. That was the solution. I can now sail confidentially anywhere with the motor as a fail-safe. No more need to worry about wind direction and windspeed ruining my day. The motor does not replace the sail, but rather it allows operation in far more weather conditions without getting into trouble.


Jim,
I had fuel issues too when I was using a gas outboard. To solve them, I first switched to 0% ethanol gasoline as you have. I then used this product to filter out any contaminants and water which completely resolved the problem:




There are numerous YouTube videos showing the efficacy of this product. Small gasoline motors can be very fussy concerning fuel. This product helped me. It's especially useful in areas of high humidity where condensation can form in fuel storage tanks.

Really good response, that filter would be great when filling the gas can at the pump. The huge underground storage tanks especially in humid florida are the likely source of the water.
To make matters worse ethanol is water soluble, and mixes with the water turning into a white jello settling in your float bowl, and blocking jets.
I always tried to use ethanol free fuel if I could get in in my outboards, however because the volume sold at gas stations is very low and is very prone to water contamination.
For this reason the filter you recommend is the perfect solution in my eyes.
As a private pilot, water was always a constant issue with small planes as well, sure wish someone had come up with this solution years ago.
I can’t count how many times and had to remove and clean the carbs, ( white jello) on my honda’s.
Great suggestion
FE

Yes, the fuel filter is a good add.

I have the same filter.....but left it in PA for my Florida Keys trip....

The new gas (REC90) has been working great. No issues. Back deep into the Atlantic and Florida Bay. Still planning trips to avoid head winds where I can.

_________________
Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold

Do any of you "Masters of the Island Series" actually want to take a stab at the question?

Maybe break out a polar diagram of your own vast personal experiences concerning the question at hand?
If it's not an interest and you haven't actually done the work, instead simply preferring to kit your kayaks with outboard motors, that's quite all right, but why clutter this thread with something completely unrelated and useless in this respect?

Thanks!

Bravo
I encourage customization of the AI/TI line, it is a great boat for so many. But the "gotta have a gas outboard" school is just too verbal on this forum. Read the first post and discuss SAILING TO THE DESTINATION, start the motor and go where you want is not the answer.

Interesting subject…
I discovered early on that our stock TI didn’t point well upwind, (45-50 degrees off wind).
And also didn’t do very well downwind, as the single mainsail turned ito a taco shell when going down wind.
Because of geography on our region it seemed I spent 90% of my time trying to sail upwind.
So when making all the mods to my TI’s I focused exclusively on getting the boat to perform better upwind and downwind, while totally ignoring trying to improve on the sailing performance on a reach, ( 90 deg to the wind), since we almost never sailed 90 degrees to the wind anyway.
Another big deal for us was tacking, I simply refused to tack back and forth, because we would be sailing like crazy, ( feeling we were experts at sailing, lol). But watching our course made good app on our iphone told us the real story. We were sailing like crazy at 6mph but our course made good was minus 1mph, ( we were being blown out to sea and didn’t know it), happened several times, and on occasion put us in grave danger. When a mile or so offshore there is no visual reference, and you think your doing great, but the distant island, (shore), keeps getting smaller and smaller as the hours pass.

All my design stuff ( eg… wing sails, hybrid outboards, hull mods, etc) specifically focused on ‘course made good’. Specifically so I wouldn't ever need to tack again, ( which I despised doing), and vowed to never be blown out to sea again. Eventually, ( actually years later) once I got everything dialed in, the actual wind direction and velocity had near no effect on the boats performance. Basically I was exploiting the apparent wind created by my forward motion, and amplifying/ accelerating that apparent wind to my advantage, ( via the wing sails). A side benefit in the hot florida sun was with 10mph winds and sailing at ten mph forward speed you had a nice cool 20mph wind directly on your face keeping you cool.
Actually my best point of sail was 10-15 degrees of the bow, and the absolute worst point of sail was a 90 degree reach, ( which I avoided like the plague).
In conclusion, the course made good is the most important aspect when tuning your boat in my opinion.
I still feel the TI was one of the greatest inventions ever, (Thanks Hobie). When using it’s tri-power capabilities, (eg… wind, human power, and supplimental power sources, all at the same time). None of which had ever been done before.
FE

( never mind, ignore above)

Fusioneng - what are these wing sails you speak of? Could you elaborate on your mods to improve upwind pointing and downwind sailing?

Also, would the AI be any better or worse or effectively the same as TI in regards to sailing angle.

_________________
2002 Getaway - SOLD in 2018 "Cheshire Cat"
2016 AI - Bought used 3.18.23 "Crabby Puppy"

Then what is the answer? What else can you possibly do with a little plastic pseudo-sailboat with really poor upwind capabilities? Let's get real here. The TI is not a performance sailboat, it's just a plastic rotomolded kayak with an added small, boomless mainsail and a couple of amas bolted on. What can any serious sailor really expect of it? It was designed for very light day sailing on a protected lake. We TI enthusiasts often try to push it well beyond its intended purposes, but trying to turn it into a performance sailboat with excellent upwind capabilities is a huge stretch. Hobie added a TI spinnaker option to try to improve its broad reach and others have tried to add a jib in an attempt to perhaps improve its close reach capabilities, but with very limited success and added complexity. This is about all you can practically do with the TI. Fusioneng even went far beyond practical with hydrofoils, wing sails, planing hull mods, and more. In the end, even he ultimately decided that the best practical and effective solution was to add alternate propulsive power. Again, I'm talking practical solutions here, few of us are willing or capable of adding @fusioneng's wing sails or hydrofoils. Adding a motor is a practical solution that almost anyone can do on a TI.

Before I added the motor, I found myself in situation after situation where I couldn't reach my destination, and that destination was often getting back to the dock before dark, or just trying to get back to shore in weather that turned inclement and possibly threatening. I was on the verge of selling the boat as it was useless and even dangerous to me where I sailed without better upwind performance. Who wants a sailboat that simply can't sail where you often need it to go without great time and effort and possibly never being able to reach your destination or worse, being blown far off course or even out to sea?

People here have tried all sorts of mods to improve the TI, no one more so than @fusioneng. Yet I see no one who has solved the upwind issue. Frankly, I don't think anyone can. It would probably take an entirely new redesign by Hobie to fix it and I don't think that's going to be happening anytime soon. The MirageDrive helps, but it's too easily overpowered, and being human-powered is totally reliant on the health, fitness, and endurance of the operator, many of us who are elderly or have physical issues.

So the obvious solution to many is to simply resolve the weak upwind sailing performance via alternate propulsive power. This makes practical sense and fully resolves the issue. Many typical sailboaters choose to include a motor for situations where sailing is too difficult, impractical, or dangerous, and this is with real sailboats with much better performance. With a motor, the TI can now go almost anywhere, is far more enjoyable, and much safer without the fear, concern, or danger of becoming stranded, going dangerously off-course, or risking a capsize in bad weather. If you wish to push the TI well beyond its intended use of close-to-shore day sailing on a protected lake, you probably need a motor. Otherwise, you're risking your safety and the safety of your passengers, especially if you're not an experienced, expert sailor. While a few may object to adding alternate propulsion, I firmly believe that the majority of TI owners not only find it acceptable but also highly desirable. There will always be a few who object, but it's simply not possible to please everyone.

If you find this unacceptable, then by all means try to find another solution. The Hobie Islands have been around in various designs for nearly two decades now and I don't yet see anyone practically solving this problem any other way, so I'm not holding my breath. Hobie's spinnaker kit offered better broad-reaching performance but if Hobie themselves, who employ some of the best sailboat designers worldwide can't solve the TI's close reach upwind performance, then anyone who can will likely need to be a sailboat design genius.

So, like it or not, the practical answer to anyone inquiring how to solve the TI's poor upwind performance is always going to include adding a motor. If anyone has a better practical solution that actually works, then we'd certainly all love to hear it.

Please get off your "gotta have a gas motor" soapbox and read the first post. It sounds like they are not experienced with multihulls and want to share a common frustration of all sailors, especially the multihull types. THEY DO NOT POINT Yes my prindle 16 out pointed my hobie 16 but my 470 beat the crap upwind out of both of them. Yet I prefer the multihulls. I am not a destination sailor, if I have to go to a specific place and want to get there quickly a motorboat is the answer. I am a pleasure sailor. Wander around a bay, sail along the coast and enjoy the journey.
So don't sweat the tacking, pedal a bit and you can point higher. Enjoy the day, the challenge of sailing well and the excitement of surfing a wave or two off the wind. Want to go downwind? File a notch in your paddle and use it to hold the sail out, or rig a barber hauler or get the spinnaker kit. This is sailing, a challenging skill in a great boat. If this isn't fun buy a motorboat. Or take up another sport.

In order to have a discussion such as this, it's vital to specify which type of TI owners you want advice from, otherwise you're opening up the discussion to every type of TI owner here and you're going to get all kinds of advice you may not want.

Let's just quickly get the motor issue completely out of the way first since it has already been inadvertently brought up and there may be new TI owners who haven't heard this before. Those who have, just skip over this paragraph. Those who buy the TI exclusively for sailing, and sail within protected waters with a safe shore nearby in all directions, do not need to have a motor. Those who use the TI on large bodies of water, and/or areas with high winds, waves, and strong currents, and/or especially off-shore, really do. This is not a soapbox, it's a warning. The TI is a great boat for its intended purpose, light day sailing in protected waters with shores always nearby. However, from what I see in this forum, many people, including myself, are commonly using it on large bodies of open water, in busy channels with heavy currents, in areas where weather can quickly cause dangerous conditions, and even off-shore in ocean areas. In these difficult and sometimes potentially treacherous areas, the TI can be easily/quickly overwhelmed and a motor is required for safe and effective operation when the TI fails to safely perform using its own rather limited inherent abilities. The only possible exception would be for those who possess superb sailing skills, years of sailing experience, and the ability to deal with very difficult, potentially life-threatening sailing situations with a limited-performance sailboat.

Now that the motor issue is out of the way, let's discuss sailing.

If you're a non-destination sailor on a small, well-protected lake and would be able to make shore in any direction if blown off-course, then the TI is fine as-is. However, this just does not appear to be the typical TI owner. Anyone who is serious about sailing or is a purist sailor is rarely going to buy a TI. There are far better small sailboats to buy with much better sailing performance to hone sailing skills. The TI is a marginal-performance sailboat at best and it's not a great learning sailboat with its single boomless mainsail and limited maneuvering capabilities. You can learn only rudimentary, entry-level sailing from it. You'll never see it at a serious sailing school. However, if you own a TI and use it exclusively for sailing anyway, the very first thing that is abundantly evident is that it does not point well. Again, if anyone has a practical solution for this, all of us, even the adventure guys, would love to hear about it. Please post about it here. Personally, I gave up on trying to resolve this long ago but I would love to be proven wrong. That's all I have to offer on the subject, I knew going in that the TI was not a true sailboat, but I thought it would perform a bit better at sailing than it does. As an adventure boater, it doesn't matter much to me because I have workarounds, but it's evident that it does matter to others here, so please continue the discussion.

Please, going forward, if anyone wants to have a discussion thread solely about the best pointing or other sailing practices using a TI, simply preface it by clearly stating that this is a TI sailing-only discussion, not a general-use TI discussion. Otherwise, the adventure TI owners are fairly going to pipe in and suggest non-sailing methods to overcome any deficiencies. If you want a purist sailing discussion, simply say so up front and the rest of us will immediately back off, otherwise, it appears that you're trying to resolve a general use problem by any means available, and for that, we know the solutions.

So, adventure TI owners, now that this is clear, let's back off and leave the rest of this discussion to TI sailing only, no motors allowed.

This is truly tiring, probably as tiring as motoring in a TI.

The boat points as well as any lightweight multihull. Pedalling increases this as it shifts apparent wind. Many of the 18-24 foot monohulls I sail around may point higher but not by much. And when I use the boat to the max potential by pedalling we are pretty close on upwind gains. And several sailors went out and bought one after an hour in my boat. Advanced sailors who enjoy the sport but gave it up because it was too tough to do in their senior years.

Regarding you comment about most serious sailors not buying one, it is quite the opposite. Sailors who are not into the physical demands of a hobie 16/17/18 are loving the TI. And they don't mind the lack of a boom or sail bending controls, it takes them back to the basics. Maybe you should try to improve your sailing skills instead of turning on a motor to compensate.

And let us not forget the "adventure guys" in the water tribe, look how far they go without a motor in their hobies.

I get it, you don't care for motoring in a TI, and that's fine, but many of us do and it's just as legit as sailing one. To each his own.

Motoring in a TI is anything but tiring, it's incredibly relaxing especially with a very quiet electric. I love it. I always still sail whenever and wherever conditions allow, but I'm a destination sailor and I need to get where I'm going, so our goals are not the same.

I still don't see many serious sailors wanting to push boundaries and improve their skills buying a TI, but I'll certainly give those with physical issues and older sailors the benefit of the doubt.

If you read the Water Tribe adventures, they often get into considerable problems that others would want to avoid. But it's my guess that they enjoy the challenge and even the danger. Not your typical recreational boaters. Again, to each his own.

Concerning my sailing skills, I can sail quite competitively with all but the best, so please keep your snide remarks to yourself and stay civil here. We're all entitled to our opinions provided that we don't insult or troll each other. That's crossing a line. We all enjoy our TIs in many different ways and there's nothing wrong with that.

So, as I asked earlier, let's now please keep the rest of this thread focused solely on sailing and the original question as per the OP's request.

In my experience when trying to sail upwind with just the stock boat, ( ie.. no wing sails or outboards). I found thru many hours of trying everything I could to get back to our launch site against strong headwinds, (15-20mph).
What I would do is not try to sail by tacking in wide swaths back and forth at 50 deg off the wind. Yes the boat goes very fast and you feel your really moving, but in reality your course made good numbers end up negative, (basically you will tack back and forth many hours get yourself exhausted and never get back to launch, ( this happened to us many times with our TI).
Speaking as an expert sailer, I’m just telling it like it is.
I strongly recommend using a course made good app on iphones, so you can experiment with different tacking methods, and come up with what works best, without exhausting yourself from hours of useless tacking backward, going nowhere, ( happened to us a lot, sometime not getting back to launch until well after dark, ( exhausted).
This reminds me to mention that I highly recommend to have lights on board your TI at all times. Both red green, and a white rear light, as well as a good bright flashlight. We had several occasions in Key Largo where it got well past dark, ( not intentially), and simply couldn’t find our launch site in the dark, (lol, all the resorts look the same after dark, pretty embarrasing pulling into the wrong one asking for directions).
We never ever had any intentions of ever sailing after dark, but on the advise of another TI sailer we bought battery powered running lights and a good flashlight, all stored in a dry bag inside the hull, along with first aid kit, and mandatory flares, and a working radio. We also had one of those emergency beacons, all just in case.

When trying to get back to launch against heavy duty headwinds we found what worked best for us was to furl the sail in several turns, then pull the sail as tight as we could, ( while pointing directly into the wind).
Now start peddling, once you get a little forward speed going, turn your till out of the wind until the sail catches and starts producing power. Watch your gps speed closely and keep peddling , ( fairly hard). By adjusting your angle to the wind and different peddling force you will get to something that works. Typically for us that was around 20 degrees off the wind with a gps speed of around 3-4 mph, tacking back and forth as needed to stay pointed toward your launch point destination.
Of course you can’t maintain that much hard pedaling for very long, so you need to adjust your sail angle to a sustainable pedaling cadence.
If you get exhausted drop your anchor and rest a while, (btw always have a good anchor on board, we also kept a sea anchor on board so we could stop and rest when exhausted.
We would never ever launch in any wind over 7 mph, and always checked forecasts before leaving. However you never know whats going to happen while out there, no matter if your offshore or on seemingly safe inland lakes. We are only day sailers typically, just wanting to go bang around for the day and explore.
Some of the lakes we have got into serious trouble are, Bull Shoals, (ak), lake Lanier, (ga), lake Hartwell, (ga), Lake Michigan, (mi), and Mississippi river, (il), just to name a few. Never with any intentions of going out in rough weather or high winds knowingly.
Of course salt water and ocean sailing is a different matter altogether, I don’t recommend taking a stock TI out in the ocean, (except in very protected areas). We have been in trouble in Tampa bay, (fl), Sarasota bay, (fl), Key Largo, (fl), key west, (fl), bahia honda, (fl). Never intended, just day sailing.
I’m just sayin, it’s not a bad idea to always be prepared for anything… practice getting back on board the boat, ( way harder than it sounds). Capsize recovery, when you have an ama collapse, ( we have had many), to boat capsizes, you had better know how to right the boat, (just sayin). When the hull fills with water, it’s a good idea to know how to get the water out, ( we always carried a hand pump on board). Btw, when the TI gets swamped the bow sinks, and the boat becomes a bobber.
If you break a rudder pin, you need to practice replacing the pin, ( harder than it sounds in rough weather).
Same applies with any sailboat, (aka.. sunfish, laser, hobie 16). You need to know how to recover when you flip, or something breaks, (like the mast, (we snapped off more than our fair share of TI masts, lol). Thank you Hobie for the Mirage drives, anyone who has had to swim a laser or sunfish with a broken mast or tiller back to shore will understand what I’m saying.
Just trying to help here with techniques to make progress up wind, that will hopefully work out for you.
Obviously if you happen to have a backup electric or gas powersource, ( not mentioning the word motor), the technique I outlined is not so extreme on your leg muscle's, (mirage pedaling at a high cadence for hours). I always pedaled 100% of the time always so my legs were very strong.
FE