Return to Hobie.com

Hobie Forums

It is currently Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:35 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 118 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:39 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 11993
Location: Oceanside, California
This is under investigation. Sending a claim and sending us samples from the failed mast would be very helpful.

As noted earlier; broken masts are not always an indication of defect as they are a lighter weight construction... on all sailboats. We try to make the product durable, but not too heavy. Sometimes it is a fine line. I don't have an accounting of this, but does seem that most failures seem to be an older vintage.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:18 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:45 am
Posts: 13
[quote="mmiller"][quote]To bring this thread to some sort of conclusion, can a Director of Hobie please answer the following questions:


"We have only seen a very low percentage of failure to masts in general..."

...

Dear M. Miller, sorry, but I can not agree with this.

Here on the Canaries, we have been sailing several TI, different years models, under different sailing, waves and wind conditions, and we have suffered several broken masts...more than the normal...

A broken Hobie TI mast during sailing is a very unpleasant experience and also hard on our wallets...because as known...Hobie replacement masts are really expensive.

Hobie enginering must look into this seriously. Hobie Island masts need to be upgraded urgently


Best regards from Canary Island


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:50 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 11993
Location: Oceanside, California
Yes, we are reviewing with engineering...

I have the World view on failures... The percentage of failure is quite low.

You sail in the Canaries, which I know is an open ocean and higher wind area. You would experience more issues naturally.

Do you sail in winds higher than we recommend? There are reasonable limits for our products to be guaranteed. We recommend adhering to local small craft advisory rules. In our area in southern California, the small craft advisories go up at:

Quote:
The threshold conditions for the Small Craft Advisory are usually 18 knots of wind (less than 18 knots in some dangerous waters) or hazardous wave conditions.


Beyond that wind or sea state... you need to take responsibility for the safety of your crew and boat.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:19 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 3084
Location: South Florida
Matt, a few years ago when we had a similar discussion, a friend of mine said (I have to paraphrase him); "Matt, you know it just gets fun when the small advisory goes up."

At some point, I suggested there ought to be an "expedition class" Hobie Islands, i.e., boats strengthened at key points such as the mast, aka brace/pin, akas, rudder housing/pin. Hobie chose not to strengthen these areas as far as I know. It does seem, considering the mast failures, this point should be reconsidered.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:55 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm
Posts: 704
Location: Benicia, CA
mmiller wrote:
Yes, we are reviewing with engineering...

I have the World view on failures... The percentage of failure is quite low.

In our area in southern California, the small craft advisories go up at:

Quote:
The threshold conditions for the Small Craft Advisory are usually 18 knots of wind (less than 18 knots in some dangerous waters) or hazardous wave conditions.


Beyond that wind or sea state... you need to take responsibility for the safety of your crew and boat.


Sure, a skipper is always responsible for safety. And it is reasonable to design a boat for benign conditions and say so in the product brochures (it does doesn't it?). The original islands were less robust; smaller amas for example...so in bigger wind you either had to reef or you got flipped. BUT, then you made bigger floats, more robust connections, added a spin for gossake...just sayin' that while I understand the company isn't happy about mast failures and wants to avoid responsibility-it'd take a big chunk of change to replace them all considering how many you've sold--fact is once you get more than newby's sailing them, folks will skirt the edge of the envelope.

And "world view on failures...percentage ... is quite low". Gimme a break. You know that most stay in garages or in yards except for 3 or 4 times a year-so those shouldn't be even considered in your stats (but that wouldn't be to your advantage).

_________________
R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:26 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:59 am
Posts: 15
Location: Cleveland, OH
I removed the rivets the day I saw this thread. That cleat is not much use- I never once adjusted the downhaul -it appears that other than holding tension for furling, there is no significant effect on sail shape or performance from the adjustment an different wind ranges. There were wear marks on the mast tube, but light ones. Clearly the condition of the rivet heads is a big factor- if they have sharps they will act like blades, while if they are smooth they will still mark, but not really damage.

When doing the repair it also caught my eye that the three brass rivets holding the lower main batten receiver had disintegrated, and the batten was sticking out of the bottom of the sail. I replaced them with 3 stainless 8-32x 1/2 inch bolts and nylocks, then covered the nuts with plastic nut covers. All tight again. The loads on the batten obviously exceed the strength of those wee soft rivets.

My boat is a '15 sailed in open water (Lake Erie) and inland, about 35 three- hour outings over 2 years.

All in all, if you use common sense, these boats are well designed and well built. The downhaul cleat should be deleted and the rigging standard changed to a fixed downhaul, you don't need to be a trained engineer to see what is going on there.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:46 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 8
I have a 2013 that was bought in 2014. It has been used only a handful of times. . However the mast has scoring from the down haul Rivets.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:57 pm 
Online
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:08 pm
Posts: 3
Location: Canberra, Australia
I found that sliding a 300mm length of 50mm heat-shrink tubing over the affected area of the mast, then lightly warming it with a hair dryer to shrink it down, provided a neat and effective solution to these rub points. :wink:
https://www.jaycar.com.au/heatshrink-tu ... k/p/WH5582

_________________
Cheers...
Mark


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:24 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:17 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Gippsland Lakes, Australia
What a great site and thank heavens for the www.

Just read this and went out and checked mine. Sure enough the rivet is oxidising and there is the start of mark on the mast. Wrapped it in a metal tape so it should outlive me and any future owner.

I have done most of things suggested on this site. I'm an addicted tinkerer and improver of all my stuff. I'd never have spotted this though.

This thread need to be retitled to 'everyone read this' - it will eventually happen to all.

Thanks

Rod


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:56 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2677
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
My opinion on the masts is if exposed to extreme conditions the mast will snap, (actually easily). In my experience that point is showing a full sail pulled tight in 15mph winds or higher, and winds from the side. You can see when the mast is pushed to one side over about 3 feet at the top, the mast is under great stress. Putting the mast under that much stress is not neccessary, (you won't go any faster). What most of us experienced guys do is furl the sail in one turn in winds over 10-12mph, then a couple turns in 13-15 mph, (or whatever works for you). The boat goes just as fast and there is much less risk of capsize. I never go out on purpose in anything over 15mph winds. The main reason being at least with my boat when running just the main sail I have tremendous difficulty sailing up wind in higher winds. Yea the boat is sailing like crazy as you tack back and forth, but most of the time my actual vmg (velocity made good) is negative, (in other words I'm being blown out to sea and can't do anything about it, the stock boat is simply not capable enough).
Tape on the mast in any area where abrasion occurs ( say from rivets), is the easiest solution in my opinion, ( that's what I do).
It's also pretty important to protect the mast from banging into stuff, I found that one out the hard way, the masts are very delicate.
If running additional sails it's probably a good idea to add a rear stay line.
If really pushing the boat too hard with massive sail sets you can expect many failures, so always have backup systems to get you home safely.
The dozen or so time we have floundered or heavily damaged ours while out offshore (we have had many horrendous crashes and failures), our emergency backup outboard always gets us home.
Actually the mast itself is the least of your problems, a half dozen other critical components are more likely to fail long before the mast goes.
The best advise I can give is when going out offshore in conditions that the boat was not designed for, always have backup means to get you home safely.
FE
Edit: about 50% of the time when we go offshore and get caught in extreme conditions (never on purpose), something fails on the boat, (ie... masts snap, sails blow out, AMA's fall off, mast holders fail, delrin bearing plate snaps off, rudder pin breaks, rudder gudgeon breaks off, rudder lines snap, nylon sheer bolts break often, folded hulls (at the front hatch), aka bars fail, pitch pole, boat fills with water, etc, etc, etc). This is just my own experience running TI's offshore for near 8 yrs now, ( most every weekend year round until recently), I feel the risk is too high for me anyway, you can die out there, (50/50 odds are just too high). I recently sold my TI and am waiting for Hobies heavier version of the same craft ( fingers crossed). I'm not interested in anything else, (love those mirage drives, and the ability to use as a kayak), just need a little heavier duty version with better sailing capability, (jibs, screachers, etc), but I still want the furlable sail, ( love that), basically something with an EC 'C' rating for offshore use in the keys.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:07 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2695
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Sadly I foresee a long wait for you, FE. I am happy enough with my hsrdened TI

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:49 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 3084
Location: South Florida
I suggested some time ago that Hobie make a "camping" version of the AI/TI which would be sturdier. As Tony says, we probably have a long wait for such a craft.

FE sold his TI...say its not true!!!

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:20 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:46 am
Posts: 230
Location: Sweden, sjöbo
sanfli wrote:
I found that sliding a 300mm length of 50mm heat-shrink tubing over the affected area of the mast, then lightly warming it with a hair dryer to shrink it down, provided a neat and effective solution to these rub points. :wink:
https://www.jaycar.com.au/heatshrink-tu ... k/p/WH5582


I made the exact same easy fix to prevent this issue. I did put on a double piece of heat shrink on the foot of the mast and so its now better protected from the cleat rivets.... I hope.

_________________
Sailing my TI and fishing.... thats bliss!!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 118 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group