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TI rudder snapped in half!?!
http://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=30056		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  tspbrady [ Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
When I looked at my TI rudder this evening it looked like there was a pattern of "swirls" in the area where your broke. Mabe I was imagining it - I shall have to take a look again in better light...
Author:  Roadrunner [ Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
cmauze wrote:
I'm interested to see if the boat will be at all manageable with the smaller rudder installed - has anyone tested this? I'm skeptical, but it should be fun to try.

What I hadn't realized prior to comparing the two is (A) just how much of the TI rudder's surface area is forward of its pivot point (probably aiding reducing the forces needed to turn the rudder), and (B) how "skinny" the rudder is at exactly the point where mine snapped. There are a lot of lateral forces (and some torque, as well) being applied to a very small cross-sectional area there.
Just out of curiosity, I wonder if there are any internal air pockets along the fracture.

I think you'll find the large rudder is not compatible with the TI rudder. As you can see below, the large rudder extends forward immediately below the mounting point and would hit the hull. Additionally, the locking mechanisms are similar in theory, but located in different spots -- all other things being equal, the large rudder will not lock up in the TI.

Image

Image

Image

With the rudders overlaid as above, it also becomes clear that rudder balance is close on both -- if anything, the TI rudder has a bit less forward balance. I also believe that upper area is a little thicker on the TI rudder to accommodate the higher stress loads. Hopefully your break is the result of a defective or damaged part. The fact that it broke so soon after your first major wind would suggest that to be the case. 8)
Author:  captain-max [ Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
@cmauze - have you scored a first, with your TI rudder breaking clean in half?

Haven't heard of that before. I'd guess that the Hobie engineers, headed up by Jim Czarnowski, would have pretty well calculated the forces on the TI's rudder, and I'll bet it's appropriate. That said, there do seem to be some manufacturing issues (IMHO) in various areas of the sensitive rudder assembly as a whole.

Still, all boats can have problems, and the rudder is always a key issue. Whether you're sailing a TI, a 40' cruising yacht, or a 90' maxi racer, you really do need a backup plan in case of rudder failure.

Note to self: get out in a good wide expanse of water with no-one else around to run into, stow the rudder, and practise getting to some pre-determined point without it! :wink:
Author:  JollyGreen [ Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
captain-max wrote:
@cmauze - have you scored a first, with your TI rudder breaking clean in half?

Haven't heard of that before. I'd guess that the Hobie engineers, headed up by Jim Czarnowski, would have pretty well calculated the forces on the TI's rudder, and I'll bet it's appropriate. That said, there do seem to be some manufacturing issues (IMHO) in various areas of the sensitive rudder assembly as a whole.

Still, all boats can have problems, and the rudder is always a key issue. Whether you're sailing a TI, a 40' cruising yacht, or a 90' maxi racer, you really do need a backup plan in case of rudder failure.

Note to self: get out in a good wide expanse of water with no-one else around to run into, stow the rudder, and practise getting to some pre-determined point without it! :wink:


There was another case of the rudder snapping in half in the open forum and another case today. One of our club members was out on his TI, heard a pop, thought it was the pin, pulled the rudder up and saw it sheared right about where this one did. He was in small swells and I guess winds with gusts up to 20mph. I'm not sure if he posts on the hobie forum, if not, NOHUHU or I will get some pictures. Well, I guess we complained about rudder pins and got what we wanted, a stronger pin :)

Definitely a good idea to practice sailing without a rudder.
Author:  whosyerbob [ Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
So that's three now? Glad I replaced my curved Hobie paddle with another that uses flatter blades.

Gotta say though, with all the rudder issues we've heard and those that we've actually experienced on the water now - we're still jazzed about the TI and are continuing to go out every weekend with it!
Author:  cliffs2yak [ Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
Glad everyone got back to shore safely!

I wonder if the sailors who've experienced broken rudders were also having problems with locking there rudders in place? I would imagine a rudder would come under additional stresses if unable to lock itself against the rudder mount. Scary situation when in marginal seas. Time to practice steering without a rudder.

c2y
Author:  NOHUHU [ Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
I did not take a picture of it, but there are some we can find and post.

I did not need to shoot it. That image was burned in my mind.

It was EXACTLY like Charlie's.
Author:  cmauze [ Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
Quote:
I think you'll find the large rudder is not compatible with the TI rudder. As you can see below, the large rudder extends forward immediately below the mounting point and would hit the hull. Additionally, the locking mechanisms are similar in theory, but located in different spots -- all other things being equal, the large rudder will not lock up in the TI.
Yep...Roadrunner is right (as usual.) Although the rudder can be bolted on, it won't lock down due to the difference in shape. Great comparison pics, by the way. I forgot just how much of my rudder is now sitting somewhere on the bottom of Choctawhatchee Bay!
Quote:
Just out of curiosity, I wonder if there are any internal air pockets along the fracture.
I examined my rudder pieces pretty closely and nothing jumped out at me as obvious air pockets that would have embrittled the rudder....That doesn't rule out the existence of a bunch of smaller ones, though.
Quote:
Hopefully your break is the result of a defective or damaged part. The fact that it broke so soon after your first major wind would suggest that to be the case.
Yes...my fingers are crossed on that one. I have a couple of spare rudders on order now and will put them to the test when they come in. If I end up snapping those too maybe I'll go back to sailing school.
Quote:
have you scored a first, with your TI rudder breaking clean in half?
Seems like it...although it looks like I was quickly followed by a couple of others.
Quote:
get out in a good wide expanse of water with no-one else around to run into, stow the rudder, and practise getting to some pre-determined point without it!
Yes...highly recommended. I actually was pretty happy with how I was able to handle the boat after the failure. I still was able to sail pretty close-hauled just using a paddle braced against the hull. It was a little operator-intensive, but manageable. However, I was in relatively protected waters without much swell. If I'd still been on the ocean-side of the inlet I probably would have ended up beaching somewhere instead of bringing it all the way home.
Quote:
There was another case of the rudder snapping in half in the open forum and another case today. One of our club members was out on his TI, heard a pop, thought it was the pin, pulled the rudder up and saw it sheared right about where this one did. He was in small swells and I guess winds with gusts up to 20mph. I'm not sure if he posts on the hobie forum, if not, NOHUHU or I will get some pictures. Well, I guess we complained about rudder pins and got what we wanted, a stronger pin :)

Definitely a good idea to practice sailing without a rudder.
Wow...no kidding...another one. Would love to see pictures of that event for comparison. In case anyone wants to do some detective work, my hull number (if I'm reading it correctly) is US-HCCP0472F010. I wonder if the other boats that have experienced this came off the line around the same time. Maybe a bad batch of thermoplastic?
Quote:
Glad I replaced my curved Hobie paddle with another that uses flatter blades
For this incident I used my curved Hobie paddle which, while effective, was less than optimal. I had a telescoping flat paddle in the forward compartment but didn't want to scramble up there to get it. One little takeaway - I should have had a paddle leash handy to secure the paddle while I was using it to steer. I almost lost it a couple of times and if it had gotten away I really would have been up the proverbial creek.
Quote:
I wonder if the sailors who've experienced broken rudders were also having problems with locking there rudders in place?
In my case, no - or not at least that I could tell. Although after reading everyone else's troubles on this forum I had been anticipating trouble, my rudder had worked as advertised on all my previous outings. Always locked down no problemo.
Quote:
I would imagine a rudder would come under additional stresses if unable to lock itself against the rudder mount.
I don't think that's the case in this instance. If you look at my shots, it looks like the rubber snapped right at the locking block - leading me to believe it was fully seated when it failed. Had it not been locked, I'd think it would have failed in the vicinity of the attachment points where it bolts into the twist and stow system.
Quote:
we're still jazzed about the TI and are continuing to go out every weekend with it!

Couldn't agree more!

Cheers,

-Charlie
Author:  NOHUHU [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
Here they are, including a shot of the conditions just before the failure. Most likely, the TI was sailing an port tack into a slight long period swell. Slight wind chop from port. Two adult males on board. Offshore winds 15 mph+.

Will let you draw your own conclusions.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Author:  cmauze [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
Wow...exactly the same failure I had. I must admit I'm glad to find out that it wasn't just me. It even looks like the rudder sheared in the same direction as mine. The break looks almost identical.

Will be very interested in hearing what the Hobie folks have to say when they weigh in on this one.

Thanks for sharing the shots.

Cheers,

-Charlie
Author:  Geoff [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
I was vaguely thinking about adding a foil system, but it is pretty clear the AI wont handle the stresses in the rudder area.
Author:  whosyerbob [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
I've begun to hear murmurs that Hobie is no longer delivering any more TI's until they get the rudder issue(s) addressed.
Author:  cmauze [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
Quote:
I've begun to hear murmurs that Hobie is no longer delivering any more TI's until they get the rudder issue(s) addressed.


Wow. Is that on pretty good authority?

Just based on the number of people out on the water who've asked me about my boat, there are definitely a lot of potential buyers out there. It's probably a good call to get the issue fixed before the fleet gets any larger.

I'm looking forward to see what fix(s) Hobie comes up with. As a first-time owner, so far I've been impressed with them - I don't mind dealing with issues as long as the company is responsive with fixing them. That's what will keep me coming back and continually recommending their products to others.

Cheers,

-Charlie
Author:  mkrawats [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
I second Charlie's posting.

I too am a first-time Hobie owner.

Our TI is sailed several times a week in various locations. The Tandem always attracts a lot of attention. Never a day when someone doesn't holler "NICE BOAT! Must be fast! Where did you buy it?"

Hobie has acknowledged problems with the rudder system. Everything on our Tandem works great, except the rudder system. And as long as they keep their promise to fully address it, we will be happy to continue to refer new business to our dealer.
Author:  whosyerbob [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI rudder snapped in half!?!
cmauze wrote:
Wow. Is that on pretty good authority?

I've heard it now from two different sources - and they are not sources that have ever mislead me.
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