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TI_Tom
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:09 pm 
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That's reassuring Matt. Thank you.

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Chekika
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:16 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
Yes, I am arrogant. It is very difficult to deal with folks who don't know what they are doing when one does. No reason to be humble when you are always right, right?

Some people just don't know when to shut up do they?

Interestingly, this guy is very polite on the Hobie Getaway forum. Clearly, he thinks Hobie Island owners are stupid as a fence post. No reason to accord a fence post mentality any respect.

Keith

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TI_Tom
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Chekika wrote:
tpdavis473 wrote:
Yes, I am arrogant. It is very difficult to deal with folks who don't know what they are doing when one does. No reason to be humble when you are always right, right?

Some people just don't know when to shut up do they?

Interestingly, this guy is very polite on the Hobie Getaway forum. Clearly, he thinks Hobie Island owners are stupid as a fence post. No reason to accord a fence post mentality any respect.

Keith

We're all just novice sailors after all.

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mmiller
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:27 pm 
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I looked again at the original post as well. The failure above the wear line in the photo confused me... I had missed the point that the second line of wear was likely at the failure point. Couldn't see it because it is obliterated by the failure.

I spoke again to the engineers and they will have a closer look at this longer term wear issue.

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walt
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 6:45 pm 
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By the way tpdavis473,

My apologies for one post I made. I certainly appreciate you participating on this forum as I think for sure you make great contributions and in particular related to sails and the way they work..
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BobAgain
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 7:08 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
Yes, I am arrogant. It is very difficult to deal with folks who don't know what they are doing when one does. No reason to be humble when you are always right, right?

As I pointed out in a previous post on this topic, the point load is created because when traveling downwind the mast bends forward at the top, but the bottom bends back TO THE CLEAT=specifically to the pointy piece of material left of the mandrel of the pop rivet. I don't have to own a TI to be able to figure that out--especially since one of my boats is very similar (the Triak). The load comes when someone incorrectly fails to release the downhaul when going downwind thus creating a load on the shaft of the mast.

Heck, the pop rivets themselves are probably not creating the scoring, it is likely only the pointy piece of the mandrel--grind that off with your dremel and repair the mast with thickened epoxy--good to go. I recognize that most TI owners are novice sailors and unaccustomed to taking care of their own stuff...I routinely browse these lists since I am knowledgeable about a very many aspects of sailing and willing to help out floundering folks. I certainly haven't learned anything new here.

Masts should not break. They do fail, but they ought not break in half. I don't know who determined the carbon layup for this mast, but it does appear "different" than most carbon masts I've seen.


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Lead Belly
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:28 pm 
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walt wrote:
I certainly appreciate you participating on this forum as I think for sure you make great contributions and in particular related to sails and the way they work..


+1

Point loading is an issue with carbon/epoxy spars and, IMHO (I don't own an Island), this is well worth exploring as a possible cause of Island mast failures.

With carbon fibre booms on small boats, for example, CST Composites recommends using webbing bridles/straps to spread the load rather than rope attachments that can point load. They also say to not put holes in the underside of the boom because this is the 'tension surface'. The tension surfaces on a mast would change according to the point of sail.
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smithcorp
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:18 am 
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Great info in this thread! I aim to tape my mast and the rear of the downhaul cleat this weekend and then monitor any wearing I see.
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walt
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:10 am 
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Quote:
Point loading is an issue with carbon/epoxy spars and, IMHO (I don't own an Island, this is well worth exploring as a possible cause of Island mast failures.


The value of this thread at the moment is to someone who actually owns one of these and is wondering if they need to do anything with that cleat on the sail. Point loading is of course important (maybe a good topic for a separate thread) and the highest point loading for the TI mast occurs where the mast first exits the cross bar roller bearing cup. But at least for this case and one other I saw, the break did not occur at the highest point load spot. At least in this thread, the break occurred close to 8 inches above the highest point load spot. And the spot where it did break is where that cleat on the sail is located.
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rlepoid
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:39 am 
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In answer to the question above about why the lower rivet looks different in my original photograph, and to re-state the information on my original post, I replaced the lower river AFTER the mast broke, but BEFORE I had noticed that the mast had broken exactly where this rivet was located. The original rivet had completely disintegrated, I suspect due to wear and electrolytic action with the mast, in the presence of water. Maybe there has been less wear and electrolytic action between the mast and the upper rivet, but it still wore a groove in the mast.

I look forward to hearing the preferred solution from the Hobie engineers, because I certainly will not be allowing contact between the rivets and my new mast, when it arrives.

I have posed several questions to Matt throughout this topic, many of which are still unanswered. In my view, the most important one is whether Hobie intend to communicate this important safety issue to all Hobie Island and Tandem Island owners. Loosing your mast can quickly escalate into requiring the assistance of the Coastguard or Lifeboat or other boats, even with careful and conservative passage planning.
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vetgam
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:13 am 
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I think this has been a very useful discussion. Last week I went out to look at my mast where the rivets make contact. My boat is 6 mths old. First thing I noticed was that the lower rivet had already broken free and the cleat was held on by the top rivet only. The mast was in good shape showing only early wear at the level of the rivets. I removed the rest of the cleat. There is just too much evidence here and its not worth the risk to me. In my first AI, I bypassed the cleat and secured the down line to the canvas tab. I sailed 5 years that way. Never had a problem with the mast or with furling.

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mmiller
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:58 am 
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Quote:
I have posed several questions to Matt throughout this topic, many of which are still unanswered. In my view, the most important one is whether Hobie intend to communicate this important safety issue to all Hobie Island and Tandem Island owners. Loosing your mast can quickly escalate into requiring the assistance of the Coastguard or Lifeboat or other boats, even with careful and conservative passage planning.


The Mirage Tandem Island series is unique as it has pedal power to get you home. This makes a failure of a rig far less dramatic than on most any other sailboat. As noted by other users (why I did not reply), you have to be prepared if you go beyond normal inshore sailing. That is the intended purpose of all Hobie Cat products. You take things into your own hands and have to be prepared. I do not think this requires a statement from Hobie about the issue.

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NOHUHU
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:47 am 
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A couple strips of sail repair tape over the cleat might go a long way as a preventive, and a sedative for those who are nervous about this.

This combined with glueless repair tape on the mast rub points will keep things safe till this is sorted out. I wouldn't use any sticky tape on the mast.

If masts continue to fail in this area after that, it will give the engineers more to go on.

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CaptnChaos
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:56 pm 
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This has been an interesting thread for sure. And thanks to everyone who contributed.

I just finished removing the downhaul and the fat protruding rivets from a new 2017 Tandem island I picked up yesterday. I figured, why take chances and wear grooves in my mast when I don't really need the downhaul. Maybe the scoring affects the stability and strength of the mast, maybe it doesn't. I don't know because I'm not an expert in that area. It's a question for Hobie engineers but there's not a lot of data at this time. The response was to be prepared for anything. :o

Might be a new Hobie product line on the horizon ... matching helmets in Hibiscus, papaya and dune :lol: Just kidding of course.

Jim
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smithcorp
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:07 pm 
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NOHUHU wrote:
glueless repair tape


Hi mate - what would you recommend please? Is it rescue tape?
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