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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:04 pm 
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Location: Florida
Right now I have an issue with the TI mast trying to walk out of the mast cup. I can put in the mast, it clicks, I pull back on it and it is firmly seated. Downwind and medium wind all fine. After some serious upwind tacking (15mph) back and forth the mast walks it's way above the detention clip. At that point we court disaster and reefing in the sail is tough as we are not correctly seated. Once reseated it stays put for a while. Couple times mast was out about an inch above where it should be.

My mast pin is fine. The reefing spool has not moved on the mast. The mast cup is solid. I have all the little white balls (24). My X-brace is not moving, nor has it broken it's weld. The "V" mast cup brace is solid, correctly adjusted and bolted in place. The reefing spool is not broken it still has the lip all around that is supposed to stay behind the retainer clip.

I have replaced the SS detention spring and the clip seems to work fine. I have even added a bungee to the detention clip release handle to add more tension to be sure it was not somehow loosing it's grip and allowing the mast to slip up. Didn't help.

Imaging driving a stake into the ground - pretty hard to pull out, but if you shift it back and forth you can more easily pull out. Upwind on one point of sail the mast is held hard on the one side and with the tack it shifts to the other side. It is this scenario that the mast won't stay seated; it walks up and out past the clip.

I have always thought the clip, while being very easy to use, seems a bit insubstantial when it comes to holding down that big 18ft mast under stress.

I can have the mast walk out 4 or 5 times on a 12 mile up wind run and it is really beginning to test my patience. :evil: Each time it is a panic to dump off the wind, manually roll in the sail ad re-seat the mast. Once reseated I can't pull it back out without releasing the clip, but if I tack upwind long enough it walks back out.

The only fix I can currently imaging is kludging some kind of hose clamp & cut piece of hose onto the mast below the bearing plate to act as a stop. Would make removing the sail mast in an emergency impossible and would slow setup setup and add drag when reefing the sail. I believe there is a commercial version of what I describe, but I'd like like to fix it the right way.

I've seen broken TI masts and I don't want that. Apologize for wordy description as I wanted to cover everything I have done and what was happening

So.. any suggestions? yellow 2010 TI

BTW if this is happening on even a small number of TIs the warranty on a broken mast or risk of injury is serious stuff.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Tricky one. :?
Not something I've experienced.
When you clip the mast in can you replicate the problem by just pulling up on the mast?
Where is the locking lever in relation to the lip on the furler drum? If the mast was raised by an inch it would be off the mast base locating pin.
You are positive the mast furler drum has not slipped?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:07 pm 
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Location: Florida
stringy wrote:
Tricky one. :?
Not something I've experienced.
When you clip the mast in can you replicate the problem by just pulling up on the mast?
Where is the locking lever in relation to the lip on the furler drum? If the mast was raised by an inch it would be off the mast base locating pin.
You are positive the mast furler drum has not slipped?


Once the mast is seated the bottom of the furling drum is 1/32" above the bearing plate... give or take, and the furling drum is firmly attached to the mast. You can hear the locking leaver click in place. If you try to pull the mast back out it only gives about 1/8 - 1/4" before it stops and you can't pull it out any further. Even yanking the mast up and down won't defeat the locking leaver. It's 100% locked guaranteed. I can't bend the mast anywhere near how it bends under full sail and tacking upwind.

My only thought is that there is enough mast flex to defeat the locking lever. And yes when the mast gets past the lever and up an inch we have lost (or close to loosing) the mast placement on the pin. I never have the problem going downwind.
So the key is mast flexing. I think the tolerance of the bearing plate in respect to the furling drum is too sloppy and always have. I have even replaced all the balls with new ones wondering if the tiny bit of wear on the balls would account for something being out of tolerance. The only other wear part is the furling drum itself where it comes in contact with the bearing plate balls, But OMG that would be a bear to fix, replacing the drum without busting the mast.

Everything looks like it is supposed to and looks like there should be no problem, but there is. It is a real panic sailing in the rear seat solo and realizing your mast is up where it is not supposed to be. Can't furl in the sail easily so you have to climb over the seat and manually assist the furling process and re-seat the mast. I checked the mast cup and mast for damage and it looks fine. Been lucky to always catch it in time and in 12-15 mph wind. I got to fix this before I have a catastrophe.

I guess it is better to kludge a emergence mast stop with a clamp than loose the mast.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:41 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Yakaholic:
Have to admit, this is a new one I hadn't heard before. Mine never comes out, even though my 21 bearings (apparently I'm three short LOL) all have flat spots on them and fall out all the time and are totally shot, and the bearing area where the balls ride on the mast drum look like a mountain range (all chopped up, with deep grooves where the bearings ride), My mast stays down with no issues.
I'm wondering if it's the catch on the lever that swings forward to catch under the flange on the mast, that may have worn and the corner that is supposed to catch under the flange is rounded from wear to the point it can push out of the way too easily. If it is severely rounded it will be apparent, you might be able to file it back sharp again.
Just thinking out loud tryin to help.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:32 am 
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Location: Florida
fusioneng wrote:
Yakaholic:
Have to admit, this is a new one I hadn't heard before. Mine never comes out, even though my 21 bearings (apparently I'm three short LOL) all have flat spots on them and fall out all the time and are totally shot, and the bearing area where the balls ride on the mast drum look like a mountain range (all chopped up, with deep grooves where the bearings ride), My mast stays down with no issues.
I'm wondering if it's the catch on the lever that swings forward to catch under the flange on the mast, that may have worn and the corner that is supposed to catch under the flange is rounded from wear to the point it can push out of the way too easily. If it is severely rounded it will be apparent, you might be able to file it back sharp again.
Just thinking out loud tryin to help.
Bob


Well, it is good to know that mast drum tolerance to bearing plate may not be my the cause. The key here may indeed something funky with the catch. The lip on both the drum and the lever look correct. The lever seems to swing in and out pivoting on a screw and the spring holds it in place and extra tension doesn't help. It does appear that the locking lever is being twisting up rather than being forced open. The lip on the drum is actually prying the lever up, the lever twists back in such a way to allow the drum lip to sneak past it. On the next tack the mast shifts to the other side and the lever is no longer twisted but by then the lip on the drum is on the other side and the mast is no longer captured.

The lever must be free to swing in and out. It is only plastic and held in place with small self-tapping screws into more plastic. The amount of "give" allowed by the lever is letting the mast pry it up enough to escape. My 2 AIs have never had this problem. If I tighten down the pivot screws any more the lever binds, but if that solves the problem I will tighten it down to the point I have to push in the lever by hand rather than let it spring back and fort normally.

I wish there were a more robust locking mechanism cause I think all my trouble is in that latch


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:34 pm 
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Location: Chalfont Pa
What about a new or stronger spring on the release lever?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:56 pm 
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Location: Florida
quattroguy wrote:
What about a new or stronger spring on the release lever?


Replaced spring, and in the course of sailing, while it was failing, added a bungee cord to the release lever to pull it as hard forward as I could to keep it engaged against the drum. Didn't seem to help at all. I also bent out the spring to add more tension and reinstalled it, no go.

I guess I could add some kind of additional wedge or shim that blocked the release level from moving back. Effectively locking the lever from movement but I don't think it would help.

Thanks for the suggestion.

The last 3 trips out while tacking hard in full sail have all resulted in mast walking out 4 or 5 times per trip. I keep an eye on it and have always been able to catch it, but it's getting to the point where I can't even pay attention to where I'm sailing as I'm so focused on the mast. Beach the boat a few times or make adjustments between trips but so far I have not solved it.
Not replaced mast cup yet nor the lever, but I'm not too optimistic. Maybe the cup part that hold the lever is somehow cracked or damaged.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:23 pm 
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The Canary Island guys, who regularly sail in 20 knot winds, use an "Optimist mast lock" to keep the mast from riding up. This is a quick release clamp that is attached under the bearing plate. As I remember, it needs to be modified for the Hobie's larger diameter mast. Readily available on the internet at about $35.

Gary


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:10 pm 
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GaryInWI wrote:
The Canary Island guys, who regularly sail in 20 knot winds, use an "Optimist mast lock" to keep the mast from riding up. This is a quick release clamp that is attached under the bearing plate. As I remember, it needs to be modified for the Hobie's larger diameter mast. Readily available on the internet at about $35.

Gary


Thanks, I kept looking for some kind of mast clamp/lock. They don't seem to list the size specs diameter mast it would fit. If anyone has info as to how this is modified I'm interested. I like the quick release and the price is right.

Considering the price of a TI mast or a conk on the head this is a no brainer to add this and call it a day. Sounds like the kind of insurance any smart TI or AI owner should consider.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:38 pm 
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I found a thread that describes broken TI mast caused by the failure of the mast retainer

including this quote

"The mast retainer system of Hobie, is a weak part. .... Too many broken mast due this issue."

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=52415

Titled: AAAHHHH......my TI mast broke!

RedRobin
"Had the same problem, was out with my daughter and TI mast broke. Hobie replaced the mast.
I noticed that the mast clip screw had come out and was missing. My dealer gave me a new one from Hobie, but I noticed that it was only 1/4 inch long so I replaced it with a 1/2 screw. Haven't had any problem since.
I also agree that the clip spring is weak and doesn't keep the clip engaged properly, I have used a small bungee on the clip to keep slightly more pressure on the clip to the mast."

I think this could be like early rudder pin issue or the fist single weld front TI X-brace bars. The durability of the the original mast retainer needs some beefing up just like some of the other earlier parts that also needed some additional Hobie magic.

It also describes use of the Opimist lock but the links provided but author don't give any pics.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:19 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
As I haven't had this issue I took some pics while I was replacing the receiver mast base plate.
Anything look different to yours Yakaholic?
In the first pic the screw and washer on the right stops the mast uplift and is just loose enough for the lever to move:
Image
Image
Image


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:28 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I have been thinking about your problem and am starting to suspect your problem is not in the lever at all. You should put it back to stock then test out my theory. The dead giveaway is that it only slips on one tack but not the other.
What I suspect is happening is the front crossbar is sliding back and forth. In 2011 someone at the Hobie factory thought it would be smart to move the furling cleat closer to the furling drum, thus moving it from it's normal position right next to control line cleat. For a short time all heck broke loose with people's front aka braces sliding back and forth, until Hobie realized their error and put the cleats back.
With the cleat in it's normal position the aka brace can only slide a small distance before hitting the hull brace (about 1/8 inch) thus preventing the aka brace from sliding side to side. If you look at your brace you will likely see skid marks on it where it connects to the clamps that hold it to the hull.
If you have moved your furling cleat, you have to put it back to it's factory position, if it is already in it's factory position, then just putting a big black pull tie around the aka braes tube right next the furling cleat will solve your mast coming out problem. The pull tie just fills the gap between the furling cleat and the hull brace so the front crossbar can't slide from left to right.
Hope this helps
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:52 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
I have been thinking about your problem and am starting to suspect your problem is not in the lever at all. You should put it back to stock then test out my theory. The dead giveaway is that it only slips on one tack but not the other.
What I suspect is happening is the front crossbar is sliding back and forth. In 2011 someone at the Hobie factory thought it would be smart to move the furling cleat closer to the furling drum, thus moving it from it's normal position right next to control line cleat. For a short time all heck broke loose with people's front aka braces sliding back and forth, until Hobie realized their error and put the cleats back.
With the cleat in it's normal position the aka brace can only slide a small distance before hitting the hull brace (about 1/8 inch) thus preventing the aka brace from sliding side to side. If you look at your brace you will likely see skid marks on it where it connects to the clamps that hold it to the hull.
If you have moved your furling cleat, you have to put it back to it's factory position, if it is already in it's factory position, then just putting a big black pull tie around the aka braes tube right next the furling cleat will solve your mast coming out problem. The pull tie just fills the gap between the furling cleat and the hull brace so the front crossbar can't slide from left to right.
Hope this helps
Bob


I have a cleat immediately on either side of the hull brace, so there can't be more than 1/8" slide, plus I see no slide marks anywhere. I had read about the sliding brace tubes in other posts and am certain that is not happening on the TI but it can't hurt to add the wire tie.

Looking at Stringy's pics I see no difference from those on my TI or my AI that uses a similar setup. In fact mine, if anything look less worn and I replaced all the washers with new SS ones as they do rust a little.

I will reinspect everything and get back to the forum if I find anything.

Thanks all!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:43 am 
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I am having the same exact problem and found this old thread. Yakaholic, did you manage to find a good solution or reasonable workaround?
Many thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:47 pm 
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Double check that you have the mast base stud is solid and not broken (inside the hull) and then that the collar that is glued onto the mast hasn't shifted - they can come un-glued after some time. Work with your dealer if you need help directly.


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