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Boagy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:23 am 
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mmiller wrote:
We included PVC tubes for awhile... Then solved the issue by adding weld-stops over the last year or so. Solved.


I sympathise with Nubes comments. I fell for the same trap and wasn't aware that this was a known problem until I checked this forum a short time ago. The Pro Angler 14 currently sells for $4590 AUS. The Hobie heavy Duty cart $219. I purchased my new Pro Angler 14 in mid November 2015. I've used it 4 times to date. My last outing a few days ago saw me move the kayak about 20 metres down a gravel boat ramp road..... end result, nice marks in the kayak hull where the gravel embedded in the wheels has scored the plastic. My cart shows no signs of the issue being solved and I only purchased it just over 2 months ago! I love the Hobie gear but these carts have a very simple design flaw which seems should have been rectified. Maybe my cart was older stock........but that doesn't help me or anyone else in the same situation who isn't aware of the problem. Shouldn't dealers be notified of the problem and provided with a modification kit to issue with any old stock?
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mmiller
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:29 am 
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Not a design flaw. This is a cart that has been pushed beyond it's original capacity due to larger and heavier kayaks developed over the years.

We have simply had to adapt by using the PVC spacers and now welds. You need to check the cart. Likely it is an older version which would have come with instructions about adding the PVC if used on a PA.

Yes, dealers are informed. This is difficult though. They don't retain staff and they don't concentrate on any one product... let alone accessory. They are not Hobie owned and carry wide and ever changing varieties of products. Especially if you shop on line.

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Boagy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:27 am 
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Thanks for the quick reply Matt.

I inspected my cart as you advised and it definitely has no weld spots to prevent bushing slippage. I made a trip to the local dealer today and noticed that their Trax 2 cart that was on display DID have weld spots. I went back through the instruction sheet supplied with my Heavy Duty cart and there is NO reference to using PVC tube as spacers to prevent bushing slippage. I have included a link as reference. The date is of concern 1/17/2011.

I purchased my Hobie Pro Angler 14 through the local dealer - the only dealer in my state. They carry a very good range of Hobie kayaks and accessories. I was never informed of any issues with the cart and potential damage to the kayak hull. As far as I knew, I was purchasing a cart that was made by Hobie, suited and recommended for the Hobie Pro Angler and being new was the latest version/model.

I suspect that this is a source of the problems experienced by consumers/Hobie Pro Angler purchasers regarding this issue. Unless they are advised of the problem, they do not know that it exists and hence the frustration and disappointment if the problem occurs. This is exacerbated when it is discovered that this is a known issue. Perhaps I was a bit unlucky to purchase a new item that was old stock, but the fact still remains that my new expensive kayak has been damaged by one of Hobie's own products...... which is recommended for the Pro Angler. Luckily, the damage is still only relatively minor with some scratching to the hull surface .... but it shouldn't have happened.

In the interests of preventing this issue re-occurring in the future as well as customer satisfaction and product confidence, perhaps Hobie Pro Angler dealers need some 'reminder communication' (email ?) regarding this issue of 'old stock' carts.

Hobie quality and product support was one of the deciding factors as to why I purchased my Pro Angler. I still love my Pro Angler and look forward to enjoying using it for many years to come.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_Khhc ... sp=sharing
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mmiller
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:05 pm 
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Yep... old stock. That is an old instruction / cart for sure. As I noted, we try to keep dealers informed. It is very difficult to get their attention, so these things do happen unfortunately. Glad that your situation has not resulted in significant damage and you now have the correct recommendation for use of your cart.

We will keep trying.

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mmiller
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:22 am 
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Nothing to recall... the carts are not defective. If you have read through the entire thread... you should understand that we have addressed this is many ways. The "problem" has been solved.

The plug in carts are simply being used for larger and heavier loads than originally designed. The Pro Anglers push the capacity to the limit which is why we have added more cart options over the years. The best all around carts are the dollies. People who prefer a smaller plug in cart are doing so with the understanding that they are limited in their carrying capacity.

If you have not purchased a boat as yet, you are getting informed of the options and issues, so that is a good thing. Buy a dolly or be sure that a plug in cart you purchase has the spot welds or the spacers to support the load properly.

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Bruntoj
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:34 pm 
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So they're not defective, they're just too old to work with the PA's that they're supposed to work with (as per the uploaded instruction posted before my rant)

That's really a sad way to be handling a premium product/market. If we were buying cheap knock-offs or gray imports at the lowest price point maybe.

"Sorry your Takata airbag isn't defective, it just doesn't perform to today's standards"

Yes I've read the entire thread which is why I'm passionate about it. Why should I have to examine welding on a brand new product and police my dealer that way? Instead of you fixing what is already pushed through your distribution channels?


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Boagy
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:57 pm 
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I'd really rather move on with this issue.......but.

Matt with all due respect your line of reasoning doesn't make sense. The problem is NOT solved and won't be solved until ALL old stock Hobie carts are either taken out of the market (recalled), modified by the dealers before sale, or sold out.

As I pointed out in my last post, communication is the problem. You pointed out that dealers don't necessarily pass on information regarding this issue. So the only options to actually solve the problem are those I have mentioned above.

I now see you state that 'The best all around carts are the dollies'....... and.... 'People who prefer a smaller plug in cart are doing so with the understanding that they are limited in their carrying capacity'. What! How are Pro Angler purchasers supposed to know this before they buy a kayak? Please don't tell me that all potential buyers will read these forums first.

As I have pointed out, I was never aware of, or told of this issue before my purchase. I certainly wasn't of the understanding that the 'Hobie HEAVY DUTY cart' was limited in its capacity to carry the Pro Angler 14. How am I supposed to know that? The very name of the cart implies that it is of strong construction AND design........ that is why I bought this particular cart.

'If you have not purchased a boat as yet, you are getting informed of the options and issues, so that is a good thing'. Great! if you happen to read this forum before you purchase!

If the problem is 'solved' then why do people like me (and the others I have read on this forum) keep experiencing the same problem?

I think I've made my point Matt.
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mmiller
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:41 pm 
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One more time....

Carts were updated several times over the years. There were many changes. Older stock is simply older stock and is not "defective". We added new features and tweaks over the many years we have offered carts. We have and will continue to inform dealers about changes as they come up, but as noted several times before, we have a hard time getting their attention on each and every product... each and every change... and the typical retail staff changes seasonally. We have thousands of SKUs. I know our dealers can't possibly know it all and they have lots of product lines they sell. Not just Hobie. So, to help get the message across, we interact directly via our forums and try to get information to you all in this way. Because you can find answers in our forums is not a bad thing. Unfortunately you can also get bogged down in threads such as this one that are not the whole story.

Our catalogs always try to describe and differentiate between products we offer. Features and capacities are clearly shown.

We do not own dealerships. These are independent businesses. We can not tell them how to rotate their stock. If they have older versions of any product in stock... the supplier (we in this case) would never know. It is their responsibility to keep stock up to date and inform consumers about them.

The instructions provided with the cart in question clearly date the product as possibly as old as 2011. We have updated those instructions several times since that time.

Yes, the "problem" is solved with newer carts. There are so many analogies that could be used here with cell phones, computers, cars.... the old stuff is simply older. It doesn't make it defective.

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Bruntoj
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:57 pm 
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OK so if it's all above-board, customer-focused, and not Hobie's fault than how about at least a sticky on the forum? A heads-up "Here's what can happen if your dealer sells you, or you choose to use, an older cart" to give this more visibility? I see a sticky there about interior routing of lines specific to the PA, so why not this too?


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mmiller
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:03 pm 
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Likely better in the Kayak FAQ section... I'll work on that.

http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=21

This one seems to cover it: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=33397&p=131963#p131963

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Boagy
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:51 pm 
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One more time ......

I think you have missed the point Matt.

The problem does not lie with the newer carts. As you have pointed out the modifications to them have addressed the slippage problem. The problem lies with any OLD stock carts that may still be in circulation at your distribution points (dealers). Unknowingly, people are STILL buying them!

This is the problem that Hobie has to solve ......... or pass the blame on to the dealers to take responsibility..........which by your own admission has its problems and hasn't worked in some instances (mine for example) .........which leads us back to the original problem.

Just to overview my situation. I purchased a brand new HOBIE Pro Angler 14 kayak. I purchased a brand new HOBIE Heavy Duty cart that had the highest capacity, was recommended for it, and best suited for my needs (mainly rocky rough ground) according to the HOBIE catalogue (see here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5x4NI ... sp=sharing).

The HOBIE cart damaged my new kayak hull. I report my problem on this forum. What have I received in support to address my situation or give me confidence in HOBIE products in the future? Nothing, other than being informed that the problem has already been solved.

So basically I have to suck it up and take it on the chin, go out and purchase some PVC (at my own cost), spend my time making the parts for modification, to fix a problem that shouldn't have needed fixing in the first place. Oh and yes, put up with the scratches/score marks the cart has caused in my new hull every time I look at it.

I like others before me was simply trying to alert HOBIE that the issue was continuing and in the hope that something would be done to SOLVE the problem so others don't have to experience it. I think I may have been too hasty with my confidence in HOBIE product support.

And yes you are correct, 'old stuff is simply older' but it IS defective when it is sold as NEW stuff to unknowing customers and damages the product it was designed for.

End of rant.
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mmiller
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:22 am 
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I'll ask our sales reps to pass this along again.

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Memory Maker
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:28 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
Memory Maker wrote:
Welcome to the world of Hobie Accessories for the PA


Here is a short list of major accessories specifically designed for or suggested for Pro Anglers:

Part Description
72055 KAYAK COVER / PA 14 CUSTOM
72056 KAYAK COVER / PA 12 CUSTOM
72057 KAYAK COVER / PA 17 CUSTOM
80024 BAG, MIRAGEDRIVE CARRY
38652000 TRAILER HOBIE ALUM KAYAK SINGL
38652200 TRAILER HOBIE ALUM KAYAK DOUBL
38652202 TRAILER ALUM KAYAK PA17
72020007 HOBIE LIVEWELL
72020009 HOBIE DRIFT CHUTE
72020010 HOBIE SAFETY KIT
72020021 ULTIMATE KAYAK FISHING PACKAGE
72020022 KAYAK FLY FISHING PACKAGE
72020023 KAYAK CUSTOMIZATION PACKAGE
72020025 KAYAK TRAVEL PACKAGE
72020026 KAYAK SAFETY PACKAGE
72020028 MIRAGE SEAT PAD - INFLATABLE
72020029 HOBIE SAFETY PACKAGE-DELUXE
72020066 FIGHTING CUP KIT VANTAGE CHAIR
72020070 FISHFINDER INSTALL KIT III
72020072 HOBIE LIVEWELL XL
72020073 ANCHOR TROLLEY KIT - UNIVERSAL
72020074 ROD HOLDER EXTENSION / ADJ
72020076 POWERPOLE - POWER KIT
72020083 POWERPOLE MICRO AND SPIKE
72020087 COOLER - PA BUCKET / ALL CARGO
72020088 H-CRATE
72020090 TROLLING MOTOR MOUNT / PA17
72020092 RESCUE STEP - KAYAK
72020097 H-CRATE SOFT COVER
72020098 ROD HOLDER ASSEMBLY / H-RAIL
72020099 HD STRAP KIT
72020100 MOTORGUIDE QR BRACKET
72020111 FISH BAG
72020120 TROLLING MOTOR Xi5 50" FRESH
72020121 TROLLING MOTOR Xi5 50" SALT
72020176 POWERPOLE - MOUNT KIT PRO A
72020401 CRADLE SET - PRO ANGLER TRAILE
72020404 CRADLE SET - PA17 TRAILER
72020405 DOLLY HANGER KIT- PA17 TRAILER
72022030 EVOLVE v2 MOTOR KIT - K
72026102 MOUNT FUGOO H-RAIL
72076001 STAKEOUT POLE - KAYAK FISHING
80043001 HOBIE TRAX "2-30" CART PLUG-IN
80046001 HOBIE HVY DUTY PLUG-IN CART
80046101 HOBIE DOLLY, PA-UNI TUFF-TIRE
80046102 HOBIE DOLLY, PA17 TUFF-TIRE
80046201 HOBIE DOLLY, PA-UNI BEACH-TIRE
80046202 HOBIE DOLLY, PA17 BEACH-TIRE
84500011 LUMBAR PAD PRO ANGLER
84500114 HOBIE H-BAR/ ADJUSTABLE
84500115 PA17 H-BAR H-RAIL ADAPTER KIT
84513001 SAIL KIT KAYAK TURQ/PAPAYA
84514001 SAIL KIT KAYAK WHITE/RED
84515001 SAIL KIT KAYAK WHITE/TURQ
84516001 SAIL KIT KAYAK SILVER/WHITE
84517001 FURLER KIT-KAYAK SAIL
84612001 RUDDER BLADE, LARGE PRO A
84620200 G-HOLD / H-RAIL
84620202 MINIPORT / H-RAIL
84620204 STARPORT HD / H-RAIL
84621001 CUP HOLDER / H-RAIL
84622001 MOUNTING PLATE / H-RAIL
84623001 TACKLE BIN / H-RAIL
84625001 ROD RACK / H-RAIL (ONE)
84625312 PA H-RAIL UPGRADE KIT PA12
84625314 PA H-RAIL UPGRADE KIT PA14
84626001 H-RAIL BOLT ON RAIL KIT 9"
84626101 H-RAIL BOLT ON RAIL KIT 21"


So you mean these are made specifically for the PA ........ Really

..... So the Evolve is made specifically for the PA and no other Hobie ....... Then why is there not a rear mount like on all the others ....... Same with the live well etc.
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mmiller
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:52 pm 
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Read again?

Quote:
Here is a short list of major accessories specifically designed for or suggested for Pro Anglers:

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Hobie Cat USA
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Tombsy
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:28 am 
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I don't want to buy an 8 foot length of 1" pvc just for 4" I was thinking of drilling thru the collar and putting a screw or bolt thru until I find some. Bad idea?


Brian

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