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Why Not the Pearl?
http://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=53496		 Page 10 of 16
Author:  flatlander [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
dstgean wrote:
Creative wrote:
I would like to see a fast, affordable, simple to rig, solo boat. Most of my friends have stopped sailing the H16 or H18 because it's to much of a hassle to rig for a quick sail after work.


Bam! I think you nailed it. 15 minutes is at the long end. My wife loves to sail, but hanging out with the kids while I rig the 18 is not too fun for her. The wave on the other hand is just fine--as long as I don't have to assemble it from scratch, which is more like 30 minutes.
You did nail it, has to be fast set-up. One of the reasons the Yaks are so successful.

Ease of launching (read weight) becomes more and more important. As time goes on, (public) access to beaches is decreasing. Not like it was back in the heyday, pull off at a place that looked nice and stake your claim. That's one reason why the Yacht club alliances are becoming increasingly important to racing survival, as water access wains.

What makes one-design so cool, is even lowly me (who hasn't bought a new boat since '82) can figure out how to sail a boat to 90-95% of it's speed potential, get a decent set of sails, show up at a regatta, make a few good decisions, no mistakes, and win a race from time to time. I've never (except for that '82 H16) raced a boat that cost me more than 50% of new price.
THAT'S WHY ONE-DESIGN CLASSES ARE FUN

I'm hoping we see some writing on the wall (from Matt Miller) that somewhere in the future (read when it becomes amicable with the Hobie Class) that the Pearl will be available as a new alternative to the H18 & H20 class racers...when the numbers on competitive 18's & 20's dwindles below critical mass.

I'll say it again, IMHO, a new OD boat needs to be a small, single-hander that's
easy to move and transport by yourself, but foremost light with a powerful rig. If that's glass a boat so be it, or some improved roto-molded process. It needs to be as exciting to sail as a kite board, but on the opposite spectrum of the Wave (kite boarders & Wave sailors are on the water on the same days).

JJ wrote:
Frankly, I think all the discussion about one design is kind of silly.
Then don't post in this thread, read the flippin' title.

and...how can an A Class boat (one of, it not, the most experimental class) become an OD class?
Author:  Karl Brogger [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
flatlander wrote:
and...how can an A Class boat (one of, it not, the most experimental class) become an OD class?


Its not. Its a box rule. There's nothing OD about the boats even when two of the same manufacturer/model came out of the molds one after the other once the A-cat crowd gets done with them. (as a generalization) They like to tinker.
Author:  Creative [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
Karl Brogger wrote:
flatlander wrote:
and...how can an A Class boat (one of, it not, the most experimental class) become an OD class?


Its not. Its a box rule. There's nothing OD about the boats even when two of the same manufacturer/model came out of the molds one after the other once the A-cat crowd gets done with them. (as a generalization) They like to tinker.

The New Hobie One D should use some of the best design specs of the A-cats, the Wave & any other innovative boat designs/materials available, then simplify, simplify, simplify. It needs to be simple & cutting edge but affordable. (this will NOT be easily achieved) Nothing great is easy.
Author:  dstgean [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
Creative wrote:
The New Hobie One D should use some of the best design specs of the A-cats, the Wave & any other innovative boat designs/materials available, then simplify, simplify, simplify. It needs to be simple & cutting edge but affordable. (this will NOT be easily achieved) Nothing great is easy.


If it's a solo boat only, it will not be too successful. You have to be a great solo boat with capacity to hold crew without turning it into a dog.
Author:  jackB [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
dstgean wrote:
If it's a solo boat only, it will not be too successful. You have to be a great solo boat with capacity to hold crew passengers without turning it into a dog.

+1

Look at the success of H16 with 130,000 boats out there. Hobie Co. should look at another successful and modern design, Nacra 500, and improve upon. Give it a competitive price, Hobie support, and network of dealers and it will sell.

If we can have a 2up OD available, then, and only then, we can talk about a single handler. It is just a reality.
Author:  Creative [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
jackB wrote:
dstgean wrote:
If it's a solo boat only, it will not be too successful. You have to be a great solo boat with capacity to hold crew passengers without turning it into a dog.

+1

Look at the success of H16 with 130,000 boats out there. Hobie Co. should look at another successful and modern design, Nacra 500, and improve upon. Give it a competitive price, Hobie support, and network of dealers and it will sell.

If we can have a 2up OD available, then, and only then, we can talk about a single handler. It is just a reality.

What is the Hobie Wild Cat?
Author:  MBounds [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
Creative wrote:
What is the Hobie Wild Cat?
A hideously complex F-18 that takes a minimum of an hour set-up from trailer to water (and that's being generous - most people take much longer).
Author:  jackB [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
MBounds wrote:
Creative wrote:
What is the Hobie Wild Cat?
A hideously complex F-18 that takes a minimum of an hour set-up from trailer to water (and that's being generous - most people take much longer).

...and at a price tag of $25000+, definitely not affordable.
Author:  flatlander [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
jackB wrote:
dstgean wrote:
If it's a solo boat only, it will not be too successful. You have to be a great solo boat with capacity to hold crew passengers without turning it into a dog.

+1

Look at the success of H16 with 130,000 boats out there. Hobie Co. should look at another successful and modern design, Nacra 500, and improve upon. Give it a competitive price, Hobie support, and network of dealers and it will sell.

If we can have a 2up OD available, then, and only then, we can talk about a single handler. It is just a reality.
Then the reality of this requirement for the new "OD" Hobie to be a two-up boat is...it ain't gonna happen.
Hobie is not going to "step on" the Hobie 16.
My bet is, the best you can hope for is the Pearl to be brought over, eventually.

But please, y'all continue your speculation and pontification. :)
Author:  MVD [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
Flatlander wrote:
But please, y'all continue your speculation and pontification.

Agreed, John. This thread never ceases to disappoint . . .
Author:  jackB [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
flatlander wrote:
speculation and pontification

You mean spin-anfiaction and pontoon-anfiaction?
Author:  dstgean [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
flatlander wrote:
jackB wrote:
dstgean wrote:
If it's a solo boat only, it will not be too successful. You have to be a great solo boat with capacity to hold crew passengers without turning it into a dog.

+1

Look at the success of H16 with 130,000 boats out there. Hobie Co. should look at another successful and modern design, Nacra 500, and improve upon. Give it a competitive price, Hobie support, and network of dealers and it will sell.

If we can have a 2up OD available, then, and only then, we can talk about a single handler. It is just a reality.
Then the reality of this requirement for the new "OD" Hobie to be a two-up boat is...it ain't gonna happen.
Hobie is not going to "step on" the Hobie 16.
My bet is, the best you can hope for is the Pearl to be brought over, eventually.

But please, y'all continue your speculation and pontification. :)


Hobie will never trample on the H16. Their forays into two up sailors always had different focus than the H16. Their Wave & Getaway have a different focus--as does their performance lineup.

Speculation is kinda fun though, and let's face it even them MVD and you can't stay away form the pontification. Me? I'd like a pretty fast modern one up uni cat with a spin, but with additional volume. The H17 is a fun looking boat, but it's low volume. The Wave and Getaway are quite high volume, but also pretty underpowered. Silly expensive complicated boats aren't going to sell in high volume. The little kayak/trimarans are selling like hotcakes, the slow rec boats are doing the same. What would be interesting is what actual market analysis/research would ahve to say on what would sell. The Weta seems to be selling at 11K, the 25K F18's not so much in terms of marketable volume. If Hobie were to develop a brand new boat, they'd have to make up the development costs. Now that they own Hobie Europe, there are a number of offerings that could cut the development part nearly out.

Matt has said they are testing boats to see where they might fall in their product offerings. No harm in championing one you like for the kind of sailing you do. Let's face it, Hobie isn't making much on cats compared to their other product lines anyhow with the exception of the Getaway an the Wave.

Pontificate Away!
Author:  wscotterwin [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
Was the Hobie 20 successful? Why or why not?
Author:  srm [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
wscotterwin wrote:
Was the Hobie 20 successful? Why or why not?


From a profit standpoint, only Hobie could answer that question.

From the standpoint of developing a long lasting class, hard to say.

From the standpoint of introducing new racers to the sport, not likely.

In my area, a lot of EXISTING racers quickly jumped to the 20 from 16s and 18s. Our Hobie 18 fleet in particular suffered from this. Initially, I recall divisional regattas with participation in the teens to over 20 boats. Midwinters East had over 30 boats the couple times I went (late '90s). The class dwindled down in my area though within a few years as many racers came to the conclusion that the 20 is very powerful and abusive to the crew - not an easy boat to sail. Many people sold their boats and went back to whatever boat they originally raced, some faded away as the class died. It has been completely gone in my area now for at least five years (realistically closer to 10).

Hobie strongly promoted the 20 when it was first introduced as a thoroughbred racing class and the class of the future. That's probably why it drew so many existing racers - Hobie hyped it up. The NAHCA was also allowing open class boats at their regattas around that time and Hobie didn't have any offering in the 6.0 meter range to compete with the Prindle 19s or Nacra 6.0s that were present at Hobie regattas.

A new one-design class will have to have the same level of backing and "hype" from Hobie and the HCA that was provided for the 20, but the platform needs to be something that's more suitable to the average racer.

sm
Author:  fusioneng [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Hobie Catamaran "One Design" Discussion
Hi it's me again:
I have as much interest as everyone else in Hobies next generation cat design. However I tend to think outside of the box. Instead of re-hashing what is current on the market, I think as a group you could help Hobie concept and develop the next generation of cat. We all want the boat to be fast, easy and fast to setup, light weight, and a standardized design which could be classified as a one design (ie.. Laser, Weta, H16,etc), and most important inexpensive.
Why not think outside of the box and come up with suggestions on how to design and make such a boat, as well as a wish list of features you want Hobie to implement into the design.
As we all know layup fiberglass is a very labor intensive and time consuming process, Carbon fiber composites and kevlar is also very labor intensive (and way more expensive), and in addition the carbon fiber material itself is very expensive so you would want to use as little as possible. Actually roto-molding is a fairly expensive process as well, a lot of energy required to heat up those molds, and many of you are not fans of rotomolded boats.
If you want to develop a fast cat at half the weight of whats currently available, at a cost we all can afford I think we all need to think outside of the box.
For example how bout somebody develop a way to injection mold the hulls (vs layup fiberglass or rotomolding). I think it would be a pretty simple matter to design a hull with a carbon re-enforced film skin which is laid into the mold (to form the outermost hull), then close into an injection mold and mold in the insides and framework It's called IMD / IML molding, (Hobie already does this on their kayak and TI lines). Injection molding is the way the front and rear facia's are made on most of your cars (injection molding), some companies make the entire car body from these materials (ie... Saturn). The injection molded materials are way stronger than the rotomolded PE materials( stronger = lighter (less material needed)). So the weight would be half of what is currently out there. Better yet it only takes two minutes to mold the hull complete vs the hours it takes to rotomold, and days for layup fiberglass or Carbon composites (the molds are only slightly more expensive). Take the labor out and the costs go way down. With injection molding it would not be difficult to lay in a molded gf nylon keel strip, then overmold right over it (it's all pretty simple stuff).
The cross bar frames could be made from pulltrusions (yes you can pulltrude curved shapes), vs machined metals or composite (much stronger,lighter, and way cheaper).
Instead of machined or composite carbon masts, which are both very labor intensive and expensive to produce. Why doesn't one of you develop a way to produce a weaved carbon pulltrusion (carbon/kevlar/glass fibers are twisted/weaved while being pulled through the pulltrision mold process that can spit out a 25 ft mast in 15 minutes. (but doesn't cost $3000 dollars)
I am a huge fan of the mirage drive system, I don't think I could own a boat without one, why don't one of you think of a way to incorporate the mirage drive systems into something that would be usable on a cat ( I hate to paddle when the wind dies). Think outside the box, it has to be simple and add no weight or drag to the boat. This would be totally exclusive to Hobie (patents).
Sails, I think it's been pretty well proven that wing sails are in all of our futures, why can't one of you come up with a wing main sail design that is inexpensive, collapsible and super light weight (easily rigged and taken down). I'm working on one for my current TI, it's not rocket science and in my opinion would be the ultimate solution on a cat ( I'm not giving up my spinnaker though).
Foils- Why couldn't one of you develop a foil design for cats that is simple and automatic so you can reduce your wet area at higher speeds without adding drag or weight at lower speeds (as part of the basic hull design), admittedly this would be a pretty tall order. I have a feeling in ten years this will be standard on all cat hulls, one of you just needs to invent it.
If we all want super fast lightweight cat that is inexpensive (under $7000), then the above is just some of the challenges that need to be overcome, I'm pretty sure the readers of this thread have an accumulated thousand years of experience and advanced sailing knowledge (and all want to go as fast as I do). Why not help Hobie define the next generation.
I don't pretend to be an expert in any of these areas, I'm just throwing ideas out there for everyone to think about (you guys are the experts). I'm hopin you get this all worked out so I can buy my next boat,,,,,, soon. Please hurry..
Bob
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